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Add Forum to Favorites | Send Topic To a Friend | View Forum FAQ | Track this topic Page: 1 2 3 »» |
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| My Name is Daniel and I am a Genre Addict |
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Oberon_Command Member since: 5/7/2003 |
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 Posted - 4/10/2005 11:02:33 PM |
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| While rather interesting from an objective point of view, I am disturbed about how the author speaks of game developers as "drug lords", which likens us to common lords of drugs such as cocaine and marijuana. Although, clinically, you could compare them, but games are totally different from marijuana and heroin! These drugs (if you can call them that) don't really hurt all that many people, not in the way that physical drugs do. And games are easier to get 'off' too, the "addiction" being purely psychological, not psychological and physiological. [evil_game_programmer_mode] In other words, our "drugs" are better than normal drugs, and eventually we shall take over the world... [/evil_game_programmeR_mode] This article is a little weird, if you ask me. |
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krez GDNet+ Member since: 10/10/2001 From: NJ - The Garbage State |
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 Posted - 4/11/2005 2:51:54 AM |
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i agree with you more or less, except that i draw the line above marijuana but below the rest. games are something to do to waste some time, and have a little fun; nobody has ever sucked a dick for marijuana or video games. i think there is a difference between addiction and a hobby, but then again i'm not really a hardcore gamer i guess. if the legal aspects concern you, replace "marijuana" with "beer" above.Quote: i disagree with this though; there are those 37 dramatic situations that all fiction can be categorized into, the only difference being the authors style or the quality of the special effects, and some little details. music is similar, although it goes in much more obvious phases as far as what is popular at the time. |
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digitec devil Member since: 3/21/2002 From: Iowa City, IA, United States |
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 Posted - 4/11/2005 4:41:12 AM |
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| This article just went a little too far and I would've liked some statistics regarding people addicted to games. People with addictive personalities might want to beware video games (and I know a few such people), but it's not as if they're to be considered dangerous to all. And such people need to beware of many common activities that people take part in, so adding video games to the list doesn't really say anything about video games. And as far as similar concepts go I'd like to direct the author to the worldwide and indie gaming community, you can find some really fun and innovative games out there. [rant] It's so very easy to criticize. This goes for me too. [/rant] |
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Dom77 Member since: 5/31/2003 From: Germany |
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Posted - 4/11/2005 5:42:06 AM |
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| This is an interesting article. Though I haven't read it completely yet, here my first thoughts - before I forget them ;) First 'conditioning' does not work for every human/person. Like you cannot hypnotize every person. In addition to this some are easier to condition/hypnotize and others less. Therefore to base any theorie on this might work only for a subset of humanity but can't be seen as a general or major rule/explanation. Another point is, that there's is this aspect of human-machine design. And the subject of ergonomie. There are rules that are coming from i.e. the way the human body does work. Therefore if a player is not happy how a game is handled or how the interface is set up - it might not nessesairely be the reason that it is not the way he used to interact with a game of such genre. Though this is certainly an (important) aspect to consider when designing the human-game interface. Game do make addictive and they have a negative impact: in order to have more time to play the computer game, the gamer sacrifices time that normally has been scheduled for other tasks: shopping (food), make the tax declaration, cleaning the house/apartment.... whatever .... Other people might be harmed from this - but in the first it has the effect on the gamer himself. Same for chemical drugs that you put into the body. Another, already mentioned, point is the 'casual marked' for webgames or downloadable games. Does this market fellow the same rules? Some certainly, but all? To resume, I think it's a very interesting article which I will read more thouroughly, hopefully in the near future. But some aspects it mentions or on which the theorie is based upon, does not (always) apply - in my eyes. It's a good start for starting the discussion - but I guess it's not the end of wisdom ;) |
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shmoove Member since: 2/23/2004 From: Tel Aviv, Israel |
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Posted - 4/11/2005 5:42:25 AM |
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| I think you're missing the point a little bit. This is not about a direct comparison between games and drugs or about how games can be damaging to you health (which in some ways they can). He's just using the game-drug metaphor as the cause of the lack of innovation and risk-taking. At least that's how I saw it. But I think that, even though the metaphor works on many levels, it doesn't go to the root of the problem. It's just an enabling mechanic. What we're seeing in the game industry is very similar to what we're seeing in movies and music, but it's also basically the same thing that is also happening in retail, telecommunications, advertising, the energy industry, etc. Any industry driven by a handful of huge players is affected. I don't think this is the best place for this discussion (it's belongs in a good ole political thread in the Lounge), because what we're are seeing is basically the failure of free-market capitalism. shmoove |
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makeshiftwings Member since: 7/13/2001 |
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Posted - 4/11/2005 6:02:57 AM |
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| I don't usually get overly harsh, but this article is terrible. First, it's full of grammatical and spelling errors, which is tolerable in bulletin board posts, but if you're going to write an article, you should at least make a little effort. And I feel that gamedev as well should check submitted articles for spelling and grammar; it's very unprofessional to have an article in such broken English. Second, it's all opinion and mostly just general slander, and sounds too much like what I hear when someone whines that no one likes their crappy game, and go off about how World of Warcraft or Doom 3 are bad and anyone who likes those games are idiots and don't know what a real game is and if everyone wasn't an idiot they would all like my game because I'm a real developer and all other developers are sell-outs but I'm keeping it real, etc. etc. Third, it seems the whole point of the article is to instruct hardcore drug users in the ways of the game industry. Saying "See, a new genre is just like ecstasy, and such and such is like heroin!" means absolutely nothing to me, since I'm a game developer, not a drug addict. I have almost no idea what the difference feels like between being high on ecstasy and high on heroin. I think almost any other more obivous metaphors could have been used "New genres are apples, and cross genres are japanese apple-pears!" and it would have been nearly the same. The whole drug metaphor seems completely pointless; just some kid trying to spout off about all the drugs he's tried. I don't know; this article just seems like it was written by a cynical high schooler who's "someday going to make the first good MMORPG", and who's just now coming to grips with the reality of consumer culture. Also: Quote: It seemed that was sort of the point too, but as far as I know (I'm no expert as the author seems to be), drug dealers don't fail because of their unwillingness to diversify their portfolios and accept new drugs from some guy with a meth lab because they are worried their junkies only like a certain kind of drug. Drug dealers usually fail because they get shot or arrested. And are we supposed to agree that the lack of innovation in street drugs is somehow a bad thing, and that if all those indie drug developers with a chemistry set in their basement just took a few more risks, they could get drug lords to peddle their drugs? I don't know, the whole metaphor seems ridiculous and a huge stretch. [Edited by - makeshiftwings on April 11, 2005 5:02:46 AM] |
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digitec devil Member since: 3/21/2002 From: Iowa City, IA, United States |
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Posted - 4/11/2005 6:07:53 AM |
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Quote: You said it yourself, lack of innovation and risk-taking. But this is with regard to big-budget video games. Of course they don't take risks, the publishers are investors, not video game enthusiasts. They want what sells. Failure of free-market capitalism? The video game industry is a big economic player, which more and more often has been regarded with likeness to the movie industry. You might not like what it produces, but again, the people making the money do. |
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shmoove Member since: 2/23/2004 From: Tel Aviv, Israel |
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Posted - 4/11/2005 6:58:18 AM |
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| The whole point of the free market ideology is that is it supposed to adapt to best serve society, through fair competition. The point isn't supposed to be just making a lot of money. Money by itself is worthless. I am not best served by a slew of sequels. And when a big player has all that money to spend and he uses it to convince the masses that what they really want is Doom XVII, and it takes all the income that could have been channelled to smaller more inovative developers, they yes, I stand by my assertion. shmoove [edit] Added some stuff to make a better point. [/edit] |
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wackatronic Member since: 5/29/2004 From: Keller, TX, United States |
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Posted - 4/11/2005 1:53:14 PM |
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Quote: Free market? That is a pie in the sky dream. Indies have a horrible time getting their games into the market niche and on the shelf at retail stores. then if they are successful, without being bought out, they tend to use the money made to make a 'safe' title that can become a 'AAA' title. As an indie developer, I'm hoping to sell 10K to 20K and use that money to fund another game and keep this cycle up until I can reach the level of a legit game studio, but I'm not expecting it to be easy or evn make it. -- Eric |
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Sante05 Member since: 7/30/2002 From: Madrid, Spain |
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Posted - 4/11/2005 4:41:25 PM |
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| I think the author of this article went too far on making those comparisons. You could say games are addictive, in the same meaning as movies or songs can be (haven't you listened to a song day after day, not being able to get it out of your head?). However, there's a big difference between the addiction games can create, and the kind of destructive, obsessive addiction drugs provoke. Also, comparing us game developers to drug dealers, is saying we don't have ethics, we don't care about what our "drug" can do to our "consumers" as long as we get the money. Some analogies are just way beyond the line, even if the author didn't want to send that message intentionally. In fact, I believe most of that bad image videogames have, it's because of our own fault, when talking about "addiction" as a good thing. Saying a game is "addictive" might mean something very different for us than for a 40-year old woman looking into what her son is playing. About the article itself, I think most of it is opinion. It's not that I have anything about opinion and rant articles, just I think an article featured in GameDev should give information, not just personal opinions. Just my 2 cents. |
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Oberon_Command Member since: 5/7/2003 |
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Posted - 4/11/2005 5:17:31 PM |
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Quote: I agree with all of the above points. Quote: That's probably true. Certainly the grammer supports that. |
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makeshiftwings Member since: 7/13/2001 |
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Posted - 4/11/2005 9:40:34 PM |
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Quote: That's my main problem with it. I think this article reflects poorly on the professionalism of gamedev.net. It already tends to get a reputation for having an overabundance of teenage gamers with no experience or ability in actual development, and this article seems to drive that point home. If you're going to post an article full of opinions on the industry, I'd want it to be from a veteran developer that I've heard of, not some random kid who's really into hard drugs. |
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Myopic Rhino Staff Member since: The dawn of time
From: Temecula, CA, United States |
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 Posted - 4/11/2005 9:48:39 PM |
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| Uhm, he is a veteran developer. |
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Oberon_Command Member since: 5/7/2003 |
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Posted - 4/11/2005 10:06:33 PM |
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Quote: Wow, looks like he blew his reputation out the window on this one... [EDIT] There's something that bugs me about his resume, not quite sure what it is... |
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fractoid Member since: 2/9/2003 From: Perth, Australia |
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Posted - 4/11/2005 10:25:24 PM |
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Quote:Umm... have you ever played WoW or Everquest? They call it Evercrack for a reason. Ever stayed up late playing a game, to the point where you're regularly tired at work/school? Chances are you're an addict. Of course, there are varying levels of addiction. Tetris might be equivalent to, say, alcohol. You can put it down any time you want, but almost everyone's played it a few times and many people enjoy it regularly. Well-designed MMORPGs take it to a whole new level, and will have you driving regularly to the dealer to get yourself another gamecard fix. Sure, it's a psychological addiction, and not physically addictive like opiates or caffeine, but otherwise is entirely comparable. This dismissive attitude towards the comparison is due to the irrational stigma many societies hold against psychoactives. Quote:He worked for Anark, the producers of "Galapagos: Mendel's Escape", the single worst example of the increase-difficulty-through-malicious-camera-angles school of design that I've ever been subjected to. Which is a pity, because it could have been a great game if not for that. |
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makeshiftwings Member since: 7/13/2001 |
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Posted - 4/11/2005 10:28:01 PM |
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Quote: I see. It still doesn't change my opinion of the article. Though he's not a high school kid, I still feel that his resume doesn't qualify him to make sweeping statements about how to best mass-market a game in the retail channel. He's welcome to his opinons, and gamedev is welcome to publish his article, but I think the idea that we are going to make better games by thinking of customers as junkies without the capacity to think for themselves and ourselves as drug lords is not only offensive, but a horrifically bad business plan for anyone outside of an actual drug dealer. |
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Oluseyi Staff Member since: 5/14/2001 From: New York, NY, United States |
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 Posted - 4/11/2005 10:47:29 PM |
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Quote:Well, as Dave has pointed out, Daniel Cook is a veteran developer with reasonable professional experience pertinent to the matter his article attempts to treat. Further, he doesn't try to lay his perspective down as canon; rather, he argues a position, which some will disagree with, some will dismiss, and others will find intriguing or even agree with. This is the nature of inherently subjective analysis. "Information" is, itself, a subjective label. The designation of raw data as information is dependent on the data as well as on the consumer. So perhaps you don't find this article informative. That's fine. Perhaps someone else does. More importantly, I think this article has promoted reaction, which is good, but is only a first stage. Next should come response: so you disagree with Mr. Cook's analysis/assertions? Well, what are yours? Only by interacting with the material with which we are presented will we be able to come to terms with complex, abstract issues like video game addiction (which wasn't the subject, by the way), genre addiction (which was) and other social consequences of gaming. Hopefully, the discussion veers in that direction. Hopefully. |
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makeshiftwings Member since: 7/13/2001 |
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Posted - 4/11/2005 10:59:52 PM |
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Quote: I have to disagree that just "promoting a reaction" is a good enough reason for a site to promote something that comes off as unprofessional as this. I could write an article called "FPS's are like rape, and RPG's are like killing black people", and it would undoubtedly promote reaction and get people to agree or disagree, but the metaphors are offensive and generally too obscure to even mean anything to most game developers, since we're generally not rapists or KKK members. My distaste for gamedev hosting the article has little to do with whether or not gamers actually are like junkies (though in my opinion, they aren't), but that even if it were true, the act of front-paging such an article says something about the site as a whole; basically that we all think of our customers as brainless bodies to pump for money without any ethics or regard for their lives, and that all of us have really severe drug habits and experience as actual dealers ourselves, so much so that for some reason, we all understand dealing drugs better than we understand game development. I've had a friend die after OD-ing on heroin, and I've seen too many people I know get addicted to cocaine and spiral out of control. A site that I usually really enjoy, and which SHOULD have nothing to do with drugs, telling me that I'm just like a heroin dealer, leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. |
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Myopic Rhino Staff Member since: The dawn of time
From: Temecula, CA, United States |
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 Posted - 4/11/2005 11:06:36 PM |
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| Or maybe we just see it as the valid metaphor that it is. It's not like this is the first time that someone has drawn this parallel. |
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ApochPiQ Moderator - General Programming Member since: 7/17/2002 From: Atlanta, GA, United States |
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Posted - 4/11/2005 11:23:33 PM |
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| I fail to see how analogy is the same as equation - in fact, I fail to see how anyone could mistake one for the other. I could compare game development to a toaster; does that mean I'm calling gamers pieces of charred bread? Of course not. Don't be so hasty to take offense to something like this. Ok, sure, maybe the choice of drugs as a metaphor is a bit too controversial - but is it invalid or even wrong? I don't think so. Games are an enjoyable stimulus in the life of a gamer, and some are emotionally dependent on that stimulus. That is reality. Personally, I found the article very intriguing. The inspection of the cookie-cutter-gaming phenomenon was interesting and provided a point of view on the matter that I've never considered. I would be very hesitant to paint as bleak and cynical an image of the future of game design as Cook did, but I found this comment particularly promising: Quote: IMHO perhaps the article would have been more useful with a bit more exploration of that notion, but in any case it does a very good job of offering an explanation for the pattern of hit-clone-clone-clone-death that is seen in virtually all major gaming genres at this point in time. Yeah, the comparison with drugs and drug lords was a little unsettling - but is it unsettling only because it mentions an unpleasant aspect of life, or is it unsettling because it strikes us a bit too close to home? |
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makeshiftwings Member since: 7/13/2001 |
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Posted - 4/11/2005 11:30:18 PM |
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Quote: There's a difference between saying "Everquest is like crack" and actually writing a 5-page scientific dissertation on how best to emulate a heroin dealer. Most people who say "everquest is like crack" are half-joking, and I'm pretty sure anyone who's ever actually been addicted to crack could tell you there's a HUGE difference. You could say almost ANYTHING is like a drug and have it be a more or less valid metaphor (I like to ride my bike a lot, therefore I'm addicted to it and it's a drug. I like to spend time with my girlfriend a lot, therefore I'm addicted to it, and she's a drug. Etc.) Anything anyone enjoys and spends a decent amount of time on can be compared to a drug and called addictive, but there is still a huge difference between riding a bike and picking up a heroin habit. As well, there is a huge difference in trying to make a good bike, and being a heroin dealer. The "Evercrack" joke and such things are usually tongue-in-cheek and an obvious exaggeration for anyone who knows anything about crack, having a designer say with a straight face to his clients "You're nothing but junkies, and you'll like what I make you like" is offensive. So is a developer telling other developers that heroin dealers are a stellar example of good businessmen, and that we should try to emulate them as best we can. |
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Shannon Barber Moderator Member since: 6/23/2000 From: Westland, MI, United States |
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 Posted - 4/11/2005 11:37:28 PM |
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| The only thing I disagree with is that other media do not reguritate the same ideas repeatably like the game industry does. Blockbuster movies are rarely unique, and sequels are quite common there to. Books are not that different either. |
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makeshiftwings Member since: 7/13/2001 |
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Posted - 4/11/2005 11:41:20 PM |
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Quote: I can say with 100% certainty that any development I've done does NOT strike too close to home. If I thought that being a game developer were anywhere near as heartless as being a heroine dealer, I would quit in a second. The whole article could have been done without any needless comparisons to drugs. They hardly even make any sense. Granted, I know very little about dealing drugs, but I'm pretty sure heroin addicts do NOT only purchase one needle of whichever is the leading "heroin type" at EB because they don't want to spend another $40 on a different company's heroin; innovative heroin "developers" don't go bankrupt because they can't get their heroin to market due to drug lord "publishers" that are unwilling to take risks. Heroin "developers" do NOT need to keep upgrading their heroin to keep up with the pace of technology and new games. It's a stupid analogy if you try to take it this far, and the only purpose it seems to serve is to be sensationalistic, or to somehow be sort of humorous to people that have yet to really experience the bad side of drug addiction. |
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krez GDNet+ Member since: 10/10/2001 From: NJ - The Garbage State |
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Posted - 4/12/2005 12:00:20 AM |
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| i am of the opinon that anyone who thinks it is a valid metaphor should shoot heroin for a few years, then just stop, and re-read the article in between the seizures and shitting all over themselves. i only said heroin because if they smoked crack, they'd be too busy prostituting for crack money to read gamedev anymore. |
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