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Add Forum to Favorites | Send Topic To a Friend | View Forum FAQ | Track this topic Page: 1 2 »» |
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| Should working in games be more fun? |
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Anonymous Poster |
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 Posted - 5/7/2003 6:06:08 AM |
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| If this article is realistic, I'm Peter Pan. I make games just for fun, and get paid anyway. (I sell to my friends, and have a lot of friends, so make some pretty good dough. But I don't do it FOR money; money's just a side benefit.) It's *not* work, and I wouldn't even make games if I wasn't having a blast. If making games is so terrible, why are there zillions of hobbyists making their own games? It's not making games that's work; it's being a slave to corporations that is. Forget being a slave, do only what you have fun doing, independently. Life's short, don't waste it working your ass off for no pay. |
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Anonymous Poster |
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Posted - 5/26/2003 1:17:27 PM |
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| I LOVE THIS ARTICLE. IT'S SO FUNNY & SO PAINFULLY TRUE IN EVERY CAREER. IN AMERICA YOU ARE FREE TO CHOOSE! FREEDOM INCLUDES CHOICES LIKE BEING A SLAVE TO A CORPORATION, FOOL FOR A GIRL, STUPID JUST FOR THE HELL OF IT, ETC. ALWAYS REMEMBER YOU PICK YOUR FAITH (NOT CHOOSING IS A CHOICE TOO). Choice is a two edge sword, TomB Plz write more of this stuff. |
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Anonymous Poster |
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 Posted - 6/5/2003 9:22:38 PM |
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| Whoa... totally changed my perspective on entering the game industry. I'm actually going to SIGGRAPH 2003 in San Diego where a lot of game developers might be, so I'll get a sense of the situation there. I'm planning on relocating to SD to find a job with my Comp Sci and Music degree. But now I don't know if I want to go into the game industry... I dunno. Its a tough call, but I do appreciate the candid account of this article's author about game studios. Made me rethink my career options. |
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Anonymous Poster |
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 Posted - 7/20/2003 3:35:24 PM |
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| didn't change my mind. wots wrong with a little challenge in life? *smiles* but it convinced me even more to be a programmer. |
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Anonymous Poster |
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Posted - 7/20/2003 3:37:36 PM |
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| Attack of the APs!!!!!!!!!!!111111 MUWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA. fear us. |
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CybertecBartman Member since: 8/16/2003 From: Germany |
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 Posted - 8/17/2003 8:03:00 PM |
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[edited by - CybertecBartman on September 14, 2003 4:17:24 AM] |
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zppz Member since: 8/19/2002 From: Tokyo, Japan |
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Posted - 10/20/2003 7:24:38 AM |
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quote: then you are Peter Pan... the article doesn't say the actual making of the games isn't a blast. It says that being a slave to corporations isn't a blast - uhh, wait so you're agreeing with it then right? hmm... anyway, my experience has been pretty much what the article says, and I'm more than ready to get out. I have become disinterested in games, programming and even computers in general! Hah, never thought that day would come. I long for the times when I made my game as a hobby, where every part of it took shape just as I wanted. I would rather spend a 40 hour week (salary=$x) making websites and doing my game in my spare time, than making someone else's game for 60+ hours a week, and being paid for 40 (salary=~$0.6x), just like the article says. |
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Anonymous Poster |
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Posted - 10/27/2003 12:36:57 AM |
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| Yo to anyone who read dat article, dont let it put you off - you do wot u gotta do! there are billions of companies and co workers droppin ideas n puttin dem up everyday, some have been doin it for years, seriously from what i know, when people dont like sumthin they dont hang about, unless its sumthin they have to do, but thats bullshit, no one has to do what they dont want right? as for the money a lot of programmers etc work for the sheer joy, it isnt all hard work, it doesnt take "2years" to make a game unless you're workin on sumthin bigger than 20 major movies in one!!! i mean lets take final fantasy - most of the games took around a year to complete (apart from ffx) and you know wot those final fantasy games are like - they last months.. they also sold a hell of a lot more than a million units so there was quite a bit of money in there, and why is the series stretchin on so much? i mean if it was that bad they wouldnt hang around... i do understand whats bein said tho, sure final fantasy may bring in a lot, but you need this money every week not just once a year - thats true, so of course programmers etc being wot they are do other things also (wot on other games obviously, n make more money there.) it isnt the richest industry n really the main man probably has it worst - you own a company, you bring out a major idea... now you gotta make another one, the money?? oh yeah you gotta pay staff, equipment, heck you even gotta pay for a place to make the damn thing, but its all worth it in the end trust me, besides you dont play the game everyday for 12 hours - you aint the only person making this game, as a matter of fact you get other people testing it, and a game cannot be played until the engine and modes are built up... and everyone will be testing their own piece, but still i wont go on coz this is long, yeah at first it'd be a struggle, but everything in life takes time, give it a good while n you'll be havin a great time... so keep designing. |
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Anonymous Poster |
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Posted - 1/10/2004 4:29:03 AM |
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| You know, I have been a fine dining cook,(what the layman would call a chef,) for 12 years now. Comparing what I have just read to a typical day at work for me sound like a vacation. In my industry we see the same kind of wide eyed youngsters, who see Wolfgang, Emeril, Charlie Trotter, etc, and say "thats for me, women wine and song, so glamorous." The Game industry at it's lowest offers a pay hike. While once in a while you might get an abrasive manager who stands you down in front of the entire staff of Gametech Inc. You will recieve greater humiliation on a daily basis as a chef. You will be burned, lacerated and stressed to the point of seizure. 60 hr weeks are the norm, and you never even see a chair, much less sit in one. And if you did that would be grounds for dismissal. Tell me about twelve hour days while you sit on your a$$ and sip coffee. Try it standing up and running while bleeding and nursing a hangover, with the Chef screaming, "I don't care if it's done or not put it on the F*&^ing plate right F*&^ing now or get out of my F*&^ing way!" All the while your grill has started on fire and the waitress is calling you a retard. All this for a glorious $12 an hour and NO benefits. No isurance, 401k, or even vacation pay. I guess all I am trying to say is this, if you are thinking of getting into the game industry, don't let pantywaist corporate types fill your head with visions of dread. The rest of the world has it a lot worse. Just suck it up and thank your lucky stars your not me, or a starving child with shrapnel wounds in some third world country you've never heard of. |
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Surfacenormal Member since: 1/16/2004 |
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Posted - 1/16/2004 8:49:57 PM |
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| Hiya. I've worked in the game industry for a little over a year now, and I'd like to dispel a couple myths that this guy throws out under the guise of "education". MYTH #1: Most dev houses work their employees 60+ hours per week, for crap pay. I haven't seen a single ESTABLISHED game company that works their employees much harder than 40 hours/week and the occasional "crunch-time" saturday. That's typical of ANY profession, from accountants to zoologists. Yes, there are startups with low funding that HAVE to do that to survive (like our buddies at S2, I'd guess), but it's not the norm from what I've seen. And guess what: FIRST year artist and programmers typically get 40k plus 402k and full benefits at most places. True, it's tough to get a decent first job, but that's why you go to school. Which leads us to... MYTH #2: Nobody cares where or if you went to school in game dev. This is THE most ridiculous piece of advice ever. Here's the reality: I went 4 years to a good university, and then studied two more years at an art institute. At the end of all that, my artwork didn't look NEARLY as good as a lot of other JOBLESS guys in my class. Why the hell did I get the job? Because anyone who actually WENT to a good University understands it purpose: it gives you a broad base of knowledge to grab from, and then teaches you how to apply that knowledge in intelligent and often unexpected ways. Of course there are exceptions, but for the most part that diploma's a good indication of maturity, work eithic and problem-solving skills. WIthout my University study, I KNOW I wouldn't have been hired so quickly. MYTH #3: Mostly what gets you going is the prospect that your game will do well. From what I've found, most of the people who THRIVE in this industry are more concerned with the quality of their art, animation, programming, or whatever other facet that challenges them. Get into this industry for the art challenge, or the programming challenge, or whatever piece you contribute, and you'll be as happy as a clam. Get into it becasue you want to be famous, or respected, and you WILL get bitter just like this guy. Just my 2cents. |
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ZeroNull Member since: 4/21/2004 From: Connecticut, USA |
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Posted - 4/21/2004 3:45:05 PM |
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| I have only recently discovered my passion for creation; especially the creation of what other people can derive inspiriation, fun, and most importantly, being touched by and affected emotionally . (Anyone who says games can't affect you emotionally should get out of the industry, or has obviously never played Final Fantasy 7). Just recently I've discovered my dream in life was to work on creating games. I've read several articles describing how hard it was. But this article, I must admit, almost, almost made me give up. Then I realized it was written by a bitter person who sees themselves as a failure, or someone who has made it and wants to make themselves look like they are higher than everyone else. (Notice who they refer to kids a lot?) Surfacenormal I want to thank you. You have written what is probably the most important and insightful media on the subject that I have found anywhere. Thank you for giving me the inspiration and determination to follow my dream. |
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Anonymous Poster |
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Posted - 5/2/2004 10:59:08 AM |
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| I read the article, and it did definately put me off working towards getting a job in the games industry, but reading these posts has also reminded me that it is no harder than any other industry. You just need guts, determination, a little skill and a lot of hard work. Then you should make it. That is what I am hoping at least. I agree with ZeroNull, Surfacenormal's post is very excellent. Thank you for it. Lets hope that I can just stick to what I like and slowly get to where I want. Luke |
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Anonymous Poster |
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Posted - 6/8/2004 11:34:32 PM |
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quote: Geeze, let Illiteracy and stupidity raign king! Anyone who starts off writing like the above stands out to say the following things about himself/herself: I'm stupid because I think people actually think the way I write is cool I have no grasp whatsoever of the english language I failed or almost failed most classes in school I'm < 19 years old Sorry but I just hate that stupid ass street talk, hip hop I'm kool joe crap. |
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Anonymous Poster |
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Posted - 6/27/2004 5:23:12 AM |
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| Who else wants a challange? |
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Cannibal_Coder Member since: 6/7/2004 From: Okinawa City, Japan |
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Posted - 6/27/2004 6:04:36 AM |
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| I agree with ZeroNull...that was deffinitly the most insightful responce ive ever seen on such a topic Surfacenormal. Kudows on you mate. BUT!! I do believe there is a little more then that involved. Ive known alot of friends who have gone through college to get comp sci degrees just to find the computer market in GENERAL very fludded. Jobs can be pretty scarce. Ive also talked to people who have been in the game dev buisness, have even worked with a few that have gotten out, and heard some pretty horrific stories. And these were guys that had been at it for a while. Comeing in fresh from the street your looking at starting at the bottom and thats rough in any job. I think a major point here is that if your looking to get into the "buisness" as a "professional" you need to understand what goes with that. Your selling a product, and if that product doesnt sell your potentially out all the $$$ you put in. The big guns out there like Square, Blizzard, ect. put millions into their games. With that kind of money on the line they'll expect peek performance from their people, and probly some long hours. 40+ hours staring at a computer cracking code with a dedline to meet isnt for everyone. The difference between doing it professionaly and doing it for fun is that you cant just walk away when your stressed. You have to hash that crap out. The point im getting at is that aside from a good education and a good back ground, you have to have the passion. If you dont eat, sleep, and breath code, and are willing to take a little punishment to knock out those endless lines then this might not be the field for you. Gotta love the pain of it, I suppose. just my 2 yen. :-P C_C (Enter witty/insightful/profound remark here...) |
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Anonymous Poster |
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Posted - 7/16/2004 6:53:57 PM |
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| @Taz I am still extremely interested in programming games. Yeah I suppose it can be stress full but still like the chef said we only sit and wiggle our fingers. And the part where you said school isnt important....hahaha it is very important you know why being a better programmer isnt enough? because thier arent any programming tests made that any joe off the street can take to prove that they are a better programmer then anouther joe. But a diploma is proof of everything you can do and it gets you noticed. And as far as having a compentent boss goes it's doubtfull. Most likely your gonna have some rich person who knows nothing but is funding whatever project your doing bossing you around without understanding a thing. |
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Anonymous Poster |
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Posted - 4/8/2006 12:00:47 AM |
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| A college degree is great, but overrated and not directly related to future earning potential and career possibilities... Did Bill G graduate? If your good at what you do, have a passion for programming and have the desire to be wealthy, you can with the right ideas and motivation. I have been in the programming industry for 14 years now and haven't completed a 4 year degree. There are numerous college and university research foundations that have a ton of graduate level work they need to deliver to secure that grant money... I know quite a few people including myself that acquire this type of work and it pays well. If you can do the work, prove it and deliver again and again, that's all that matters. A good way to get into the software field if your a passionate uber code geek is to offer your services for free at a University. Meet a few computer science processors, drink a few beers and volunteer to help complete some research projects for free. When the next project pops up, just ask how much it pays ($30 to $60 an hour is about the going average). It just takes one good idea and the motivation to implement the idea to be a complete success. Finding a new and innovative idea is the hard part in the software world. There is a lot of money to be made in providing technical services that involve programming and can provide recurrent income for a single product line. Find out what companies need... Learn how you can sell them what they need and are willing to pay for. Working for yourself is the best option for getting into the software industry without a degree. It has worked for me and I just started writing mindless sprite type games and apps with a Commodore Vic-20 back in the day. |
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Cubed3 Member since: 3/28/2006 From: Flushing, NY, United States |
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Posted - 4/8/2006 12:15:25 AM |
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| BillG programs? |
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Prozak GDNet+ Member since: 2/22/2000 From: Lisbon, Portugal |
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 Posted - 4/8/2006 12:38:06 AM |
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Quote: So what you're saying is that because you're fuckered, we should all be fuckered... Nice logic! I've worked in construction work. Laying cement under 44 degree (celsius), but even on my worst days, I could still get home, have a shower, and be a normal human being, even go out and have some fun over my extremely-tired legs. When you start programming, you start pushing your brain too far, and on my worst days the only thing I had energy left in me to do was get home, eat dinner and crash on the bed. Also, I'm not going to contest that standing up is more tiresome than sitting down, but siting brings a lot of its own problems, like gaining weight, hemrroids, intestinal disfunctions, digestive disfunctions, prostrate problems, etc. Let's try this on for size, you try to solve the slave-driving in the Chef world, and we'll try fixing the slave-driving in the gamedev world, how about it? </ Positronic Dreams / Colibri 3D Engine / My Journal > * What the hell is an aluminum falcon? |
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Nypyren Member since: 8/20/2002 From: Eugene, OR, United States |
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Posted - 4/8/2006 2:22:53 AM |
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| I believe what we have here is a fitness function that enforces negative behavior in the general populace: - Insert ever expanding population here as "workforce". - Apply competetive management decisions (laying people off and hiring new ones, keeping the "most productive", working those willing to stay for longer hours). Since the workforce is expanding, they are treated from the standpoint of a "renewable resource". - Eventually, a majority of remaining workers become stressed out. - Eventually, a majority of the laid off workers become disgruntled that they can't keep a job. - Companies that worry about worker quality of life and say "we should just work 40 hours a week" end up getting outperformed by slave-driver companies that work 60-80 hour weeks, and are eventually driven from the industry. - Mental behavior in everyone converges upon a negative point. - Society as a whole suffers. I believe the main problem is that this might apply to any industry. But that's just a hypothetical cause/effect analysis and has no experimental results... or does it? The only reasonable way to fix this is to have the government enforce 40 hour maximum work weeks. While all of the slave-driving companies get used to this idea, software schedules eventually become more reasonable (3 months instead of one month between milestones for example). The slave-drivers lose that "free overtime", but who cares? What if all of their competition did, too? Here's what would happen if this was proposed: Slave-driving companies would *IMMEDIATELY* call it communism and an affront to freedom and capitalism and the American Dream. If laws were still put into place in spite of corporate writhing, we might *finally* have some companies focusing on improving software design process rather than the current development process of: "Oh god, we have a year and a half. Throw proper design to the wind and just bang on the keyboards with all your might! We have 4 weeks for preproduction, and we have no functioning data pipeline tools yet!" (I kid you not. The industry is exactly like that. There's no fucking software engineering anywhere in game development.) [Edited by - Nypyren on April 8, 2006 1:22:18 AM] |
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Anonymous Poster |
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Posted - 5/3/2006 10:05:15 PM |
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| That artical is rediculous im 16 years of age and i only wish there was more time for me to make games! making games is a huge amount of fun i do it every day for as long as i can and i never get bored. thats not because ive just started either (ive been doing it for seven months). ive spent countless hours (all night! and a quarter of the day) making games call me a computer geek i don't care, but to me making games(however small) is the best thing in the world. |
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Anonymous Poster |
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Posted - 9/10/2006 10:27:29 AM |
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| It's a good article, but I believe it uses smart quotes which looks horrible in my Firefox browser. Down with Microsoft Word! It is the devil! I've been developing games (as an amateur) since I first bought my Vic-20 (and that should age me!). When I bought Neverwinter Nights a few years ago I played the official campaign for about one hour then spent the next few weeks coding my first module. I love it! But one of the main reasons I love it is because I love to program as well as loving games. If you don't love to program than any programming job will end up being a chore. |
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Joe_Stone Member since: 4/28/2007 From: shreveport, LA, United States |
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Posted - 4/28/2007 3:33:46 PM |
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| [quote]Original post by Anonymous Poster Yo to anyone who read dat article, dont let it put you off - you do wot u gotta do! there are billions of companies and co workers droppin ideas n puttin dem up everyday, Please never post again. You are retarded. |
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Joe_Stone Member since: 4/28/2007 From: shreveport, LA, United States |
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Posted - 4/28/2007 3:43:59 PM |
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| [quote]Original post by Prozak [quote]Original post by Anonymous Poster You know, I have been a fine dining cook,(what the layman would call a chef,) for 12 years now. Comparing what I have just read to a typical day at work for me sound like a vacation. In my industry we see the same kind of wide eyed youngsters, who see Wolfgang, Emeril, Charlie Trotter, etc, and say "thats for me, women wine and song, so glamorous." What are you talking about. First: If you make $12/hr you are a line cook at Outback, Olive Garden or some other crap hole. Second: I am a Chef. What you are called if you are actually a cook. (Not a corp. line staffer) I'm salary. Before I was though I made closer to $35/hr. That is 4 stars not even 5. |
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