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| Trading Card Game Design |
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gamechampionx Member since: 2/22/2002 |
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 Posted - 8/18/2002 10:39:51 PM |
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| I'm thinking of making a cool Trading Card game for someone I know. I'm wondering if anyone has any experience in this type of game design. I don't know where to start. |
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draqza Member since: 7/5/2000 From: Richmond, Virginia |
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Posted - 8/18/2002 10:53:33 PM |
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| I would guess that you design CCGs mostly like any other game, except that you'll have to put a lot of focus on the mechanics of play. Think about M:tG, it's in what, it's 7th version? And they're still tinkering with mechanics. I'd say get a vague idea of the mechanics you want, and then work from there, working back and forth with your cardset and the basic gameplay. That way you should start to see holes in your mechanics, or "broken" cards, and you'll be able to get a lot of playbalancing done in the design steps. Of course, this is uneducated,inexperienced, and semi-incoherent rambling, take it as such  |
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ahw Member since: 7/19/2000 From: Letterkenny, Ireland |
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Posted - 8/19/2002 6:12:22 AM |
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One thing you can do is examine the games that DIDNT work, because believe you me, there is a ton, and I have played a few myself as I love to try new stuff and my gaming shop is always well furnished  Some of the things in common between all those games are: - What background ? The absence of some sort of storyline/background universe make for a very shallow game indeed. For instance, in M:tG, there are all those cool little quotes that hint at something more, at some background. The best for this is without a doubt L5R (with M:tG now following in their step by having a "storyline"), the only CCG I know of that spawned an utterly succesful RPG. - Doomsday Weapon Syndrome: if your game has one invincible character that once gained cant possibly beaten, you got cheese. But if the game is a simple race to who gets the big guy out first, you are doomed. One thing you have to keep in mind is that if there is no reason to keep all those little guys on the table, then why bother at all ? You have to keep some sort of way to make different tactics/styles of play attractive alternative, if your game is designed with only one style in mind, you are doomed. - Black & White or the full palette ?: Offer plenty of factions. And please make them different! Combine this with the previous item : each faction becomes an embodiement of a style of play. L5R has it, Magic has it and they are still here And if you combine this with the first item, you get intrigue, manpulation, diplomacy, aaaah ... I smell victory ! - Wargame syndrome: simplicity helps a lot. There is some sort of critical mass beyond which a card game turns into some sort of board game without a board, which tends to make players annoyed. Guardians was a formidable game, with the best art ever on a CCG (along with Dark Age), but it played more like a really cool board game. I think they also had money problem... aaaw  Middle Earth the Wizards (IIRC) was the most complex game I ever tried, absolutely awful, and without the fact that it was the first LotR CCG, it would probably have sunk fast otherwise. - My 3 years old helped me with those: Well, if you have ever seen the first versions of Magic, you might wonder like me how it survived so long. Crap graphics wont kill your game if you have got everything else, it will just make collectors ashamed to show the cards to others. But cool graphics are definitely a plus. Of course, that would be the last thing to worry about, after you got everything else right. I mean, if Magic survived after Celestial Prism (and indeed, most of Amy Weber's art), there is hope... There is probably more, but right now that's what I can think of. There are some more boring problems like money, or just not getting a strong public enough (like Legend of the Burning Sands in France...) but hey, you could think of those In one word, be curious, there are tons of CCG around, so go forth and play a few, and discover why some are popular and some not ! Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis ! |
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SI_78 Member since: 11/22/2001 From: United Kingdom |
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 Posted - 8/19/2002 6:47:38 AM |
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| interesting topic... how many ppl here have played / would play ccg's? |
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black_mage_s Banned Member since: 10/11/2001 From: America 2.0 : Canada |
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Posted - 8/19/2002 10:38:28 AM |
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| i played a few, but i hated magic. It made my brain hurt. Actually, i made a little TCG, but then it grew into something more and eventually just became a strategy game. I may still have a copy of the rules |
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ahw Member since: 7/19/2000 From: Letterkenny, Ireland |
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 Posted - 8/19/2002 1:02:42 PM |
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| One brilliant online TCG is called ChronX. It reminds me of Chaos Overlords (a game by New World Computing) but with the CCG twist. For the rest I play/played a ton of different TCG games (M:tG,L5R,LBS,MEtW,LotR,Guardians,DarkAge,Doomtrooper,Kabal and maybe a few more I forgot about )Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis ! |
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FiveFootFreak Member since: 5/28/2002 From: Germany |
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Posted - 8/19/2002 1:16:01 PM |
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| Since the typical CCG allows practically unlimited card types with all kinds of different features and powers, I think you would have to implement most of the games functionality with a scripting system. Completely hardcoding a CCG would either make it boring (non-extensible, few card abilities...) or a coding horror (try to think about every possible card combination and other effects and writing code to handle that). I think that the Magic: The Gathering PC game is hardcoded, but the reasons for this are obvious. They want you to buy the expansion packs, and not be able to create all your own cards! |
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Anonymous Poster |
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Posted - 8/19/2002 1:16:41 PM |
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| The first starwars CCG by decipher. |
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gamechampionx Member since: 2/22/2002 |
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Posted - 8/19/2002 7:44:01 PM |
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| The game is based on the WWII Battle of Britain. This game will not be on computer, but on paper. Anyway, in the game, each player must play location cards. On top of location cards, you can play a certain number of structures (based on the location) that give you points to put into playing plane cards, item cards, pilots (nneded to fly planes), and events (like Sorceries in Magic: the Gathering). These things can be played during certain phases during your turn. I'm thinking of including "Instants" (any-time spells), but I don't think they would fit the game too well. Anyway, all locations and structures will have hit points, as will planes. You can use your planes to defend your locations and structures, or attack your enemy's. You win by destroying all of the opponent's locations and structures. Yes, this is vague, but it's what I've got so far. [edited by - gamechampionx on August 19, 2002 7:44:26 PM] [edited by - gamechampionx on August 19, 2002 7:45:30 PM] |
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FiveFootFreak Member since: 5/28/2002 From: Germany |
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 Posted - 8/19/2002 8:34:33 PM |
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| you're doing the pen and paper approach...? oops. That's how I started making games when I was a small, snot-nosed brat... Now that I'm a somewhat bigger snot-nosed brat I have completely dedicated myself to the digital. Well, thanks for the chance to make myself ridiculous, and good look with the card game. |
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Taiyou Member since: 6/3/2002 From: Canada |
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Posted - 8/19/2002 9:14:09 PM |
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| I gotta say that I think Magic is a great card game, but I tried the recently released "Magic Online" and I didn't like it at all. I think the problem lies in card sizing. One of the biggest problems I had was the inability to see what each card was, and sometimes I ended up clicking the wrong ones causing me to lose games miserably. Anyway, in my opinion you can look at Magic as an example of a good game, but don't follow the formnat of the computer game; the way you view things on cards layed on a table in front of you is very different than the way that feels natural to view them on a computer screen. The only complaint I have about Magic as a card game is that it feels slightly unbalanced at times. The game took off and grew very rapidly: it may have needed a little extra attention to ensure that while each color is unique in playing style, neither will have too noticable of an advantage over the others. Put an emphasis on a well-thought out method of using the cards you got rather than finding and getting the cards that can't be beat. |
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Anonymous Poster |
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Posted - 8/19/2002 9:20:54 PM |
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| Pokemon! |
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gamechampionx Member since: 2/22/2002 |
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Posted - 8/19/2002 10:37:17 PM |
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| I'm going cheap paper Trading Card Game style. |
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Kylotan Moderator - Scripting Languages and Game Mods Member since: 3/8/2000 From: Nottingham, United Kingdom |
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Posted - 8/19/2002 11:24:02 PM |
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| Keep the accessories to a minimum. When a CCG requires "several tokens, a single six-sided die, pen and paper, a coin, miniatures to represent your wizard, a Games-Master's screen to hide your hand" and so on, you know something is wrong. As far as possible, everything should be in the cards. Too many CCGs have been glorified board games or wargames, as ahw said. With this in mind, I would probably dump the 'hitpoints' aspect of your cards as that could end up as a lot of book-keeping when you have a lot of locations and structures. I'd have it a bit more like Magic - if their planes beat yours in any given attack, then a plane is destroyed, and if there are no planes there, the location gets damaged/destroyed. [ MSVC Fixes | STL | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost | Asking Questions | Organising code files | My stuff ] |
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GarlandIX Member since: 2/10/2002 From: San Diego, CA, United States |
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Posted - 8/19/2002 11:38:11 PM |
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quote: I play Magic: the Gathering, and that's it(though i used to play Pokemon when it was popular ). Oh and BTW, what is L5R?? ------------------------------ BASIC programmers don't die, they just GOSUB and don't return. |
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Anonymous Poster |
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Posted - 8/20/2002 2:18:05 AM |
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| Anyone remember Battletech(it was a TCG based off of MechWarrior)? I loved that one, but I never found anyone to play with. (Everyone was too busy playing Magic.) It also seemed to suffer from 'When I buy a deck I don't ever get an *average card*, much less an above average card.' It was a lot easier to play than Magic. gamechampionx: You should look at Battletech as perhaps a jumping off point. I know Battletech dealt with large walking mechs and your game is based on WWII, but it handled combat so well I think you could apply a lot of that game's structure to your own. (Actually, if you change the mechs to WWII vehicles, your game sounds almost exactly like Battletech.) I still have my cards and the rulebook, even the dice I used to keep track of damage. I mention this cause I think the game isn't in print or played anymore, but I could be wrong. |
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Ganryu Member since: 10/18/2001 From: Sweden |
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Posted - 8/20/2002 4:54:59 AM |
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quote: Legend of the Five Rings. A card game based on asian the asian culture. |
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SI_78 Member since: 11/22/2001 From: United Kingdom |
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 Posted - 8/20/2002 5:11:03 AM |
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| A while ago back in my youth I made a simple CCG that worked as a combination of Stratego and Netrunner as a bit of a hobby.... Magic would be my favourite ccg, but I liked how in Netrunner both players had very distinct roles in the game, something that I don't think you see enough of, especially in video games... Just my 2p |
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ahw Member since: 7/19/2000 From: Letterkenny, Ireland |
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Posted - 8/20/2002 5:50:25 AM |
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| There was a not really collectible (that is, only one expansion, not a dozen) card games a long while ago, based on the Battle of Gettysburg. I think they also developped a few other great conflicts/battles. Definitely avoid turning your game into a glorified board game (as Kylotan and myself said). The reason is not because it's a bad idea (I loved Guardians and DarkAge, personally, as I thought it was a very cool way to make what would have been a slightly boardgame, an otherwise awesome game), but because of what people EXPECT. If you make a card game, they expect just that : something they can play without to much hassle. Eventually having to keep scores is OK, but keeping track of every single of your cards is just too much. I have played Magic since 1994 and at first, one or two counters to remember where OK, but nowadays you need a freaking bucketload if you want to do anything, and that's not a *good thing* (but at this point, no cares, M:tG has such momentum that such a minor flaw wont break it down). Besides, Hitpoints are not a necessity, except for heroes, just look at Epic40K (a wargame by Games Workshop), units only have 1 hitpoints, if they get hit, they possibly have a saving throw (vehicles and heroes) and that's it. It makes for a very fluid game, which is brilliant given the large scale. If you absolutely want something , you could give your pilots special manoeuvers they could attach and discard if they would otherwise have been killed, "Parachute" to bail out and be out of the game for a few turns but alive, "Immelman turn" to cancel an attack that would have hit you, "Minor damage" your plane is out of the fight, but you dont die, possibly it takes a few turns before you can use the pilot again. Or you could simply keep them in your hand and use them as you would use Instant cards in Magic. Or you could mix both approach ? Anyway, as I said before, you REALLY should go out there and look up card games. There is TONS, and quite a few that simulate wargamesque conflicts, so you could probably learn a few things... Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis ! |
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ahw Member since: 7/19/2000 From: Letterkenny, Ireland |
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Posted - 8/20/2002 6:20:18 AM |
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quote: Hum, I think IMHO that the order is Robotech, an anime that also had a few OAV (Macross), then Battletech, a board game developped by FASA, around the same time they also had a Roleplaying game (MechWarrior), then you got all that computer game hype, the MechWarrior series, but also a RPG a very long time ago. I didnt play the CCG as I was busy trying others, and although I am a fanatic of the series (the anime) I wasnt really impressed by the card game itself. -------------------------------------- GarlandIX : indeed, it's a fantasy game based on a mix of various asian cultures (mostly japanese). There were originally 6 great clans, but there is so many twists and turns in the storyline it would take a little while to describe the whole thing. To put it simply, the designers werent afraid to drop totally one or several Factions if it fitted the story, split a Clan in two, ressurect another, promote a fe popular characters to a fully fledged Clan, all of this thanks to the player base ! (for instance, Toku was a cheap but useful card that was so popular that the character got developed, and from a noname became the chief of the guards of the imperial palace, and later got his own clan IIRC). When some cards became **way** to powerful (Hitomi, Yakamo, Togashi), they simply kill them off in a dramatic way (Killing Lord Moon and taking it's place in Heaven, or Lady Sun for Yakamo; during a final confrontation with the big baddy, ripping its own heart where a secret scroll was hidden for a thousand years in order to save the world, etc)... raaah, they even killed Bayushi Kachiko :'-( ah well... I am getting sentimental now. ----------------------------------------------------- SI_78 : Yeah, NetRunner had a pretty cool concept (but I didnt have enough money to collect too many games at the time). I think you could look at the new LotR TCG, each turn, one plays the good guys, while the rest plays the baddies. The trick is that every body has baddies cards, so that each turn, every body gangs up on the one who is playing the goodies... I still have to find players, but I like the idea. Although I would love to play a cool cyberpunk TCG, it's something that isnt exactly common. DarkAge was cool and not too head wreaking, but the company sunk And I havent tried Shadowrun, that would be interesting given that some of the art is by Paul Bonner *drools* Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis ! |
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SI_78 Member since: 11/22/2001 From: United Kingdom |
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Posted - 8/20/2002 9:29:08 AM |
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| ahw: Sounds like an interesting approach, I'll have to try and get hold of a couple of starters! |
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ahw Member since: 7/19/2000 From: Letterkenny, Ireland |
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Posted - 8/20/2002 3:46:10 PM |
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| SI_78 and others : The great thing about "modern" games is that they realise that people need to be able to play the game right away without investing tons of money. This also means that you can buy to starters so you can quickly test the game. If you want to test the variety of the game, you also get yourself a few boosters, and rock n roll ! (personally I always buy at least 1 deck + 3 boosters) So you dont have any excuse to miss "the next big thing" Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis ! |
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shaft Member since: 11/28/2000 From: AZ, USA |
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Posted - 8/23/2002 7:29:12 PM |
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| I'm just curious, has anyone ever thought to do a card game with a real-time aspect. I mean how cool would it be if in Magic, after you played your fire elemental it bursted onto the screen and began battling creatures in an arena. [edited by - shaft on August 23, 2002 7:30:11 PM] |
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SI_78 Member since: 11/22/2001 From: United Kingdom |
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Posted - 8/29/2002 9:03:59 AM |
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| Hmm... Card rarity can also affect the play mechanics, I think that common cards should be just as powerful as rare's (in terms of cost and effect), only perhaps more general purpose whilst rare's would be more for a specific role in the deck... Also Common cards in a set could perform a task similar to a rare card but with a minor flaw I.E Common Card A deals 2 damage to target player when tapped, Rare Card D deals 2 damage to target player when tapped, player may not use any damage redirection or prevention... Just a thought...... |
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g Member since: 5/31/2002 From: Oxford, UK |
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Posted - 8/29/2002 11:28:31 PM |
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| Rather than relying on your card-balance being perfect, just made each card or strategy vulnerable to a particular type of counter-move. That way, if my friend keeps defeating me with a particularly powerful card, I adjust my deck to defend against that type of card and he has to rethink his strategy. So you're not trying to find an 'ultimate deck' anymore, you have to adapt to what you're opponents are likely to do, and which cards or strategies are 'in fashion'. One bonus is, if there is a group of cards which turn out to be a bit crappy and nobody uses them, then presumably nobody will bother to defend against them either - so the crappy cards becomes more powerful. - Aside from that, make sure that each card is interesting, has some kind of personality, and preferably a pretty picture. |
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