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 'Space Marines', good or bad design/storyline?
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message Spoonbender    Member since: 1/7/2003  From: Copenhagen, Denmark
 Posted - 5/23/2007 7:04:46 PM
Quote:
Original post by Derakon
Spoonbender: your bulked-up marines could take my lightweight ones in a fight, sure, but presumably I'm aware of this and would use different tactics.

Like what? You just said your guns aren't even good enough to penetrate your own armor, how are they going to stand a chance against mine?

Quote:

Certainly if you can manage to fit armor and flight and heavy weapons in, then you'll be "better" pretty much everywhere it counts; I was assuming some limitations on what can be carried, though, such that you couldn't fit all that into one suit.

Wait, you were the one suggesting "just using the flight unit to take the weight of extra equipment". I just thought it was a good idea that could be used to carry *more* stuff.

Also, you were going for a small lightweight suit, which *also* had a whole range of other abilities (flight, self-repair and so on). It seemed to me that you were the one going for "no compromises, I want every feature in a small light package".

Quote:

After all, tradeoffs are what make design interesting. If we assume that my marines were faster but lighter-weight than yours,

Why would they be faster? Big armor means room for servo engines, and we already established the existence of a flight unit, didn't we?
The thing is, when you start taking technology into account, it may no longer be true that smaller = faster (cars can go quite a lot faster than most man-sized vehicles). Likewise, a big suit has room for more stuff to help counter the weight disadvantage.

Quote:
but in my opinion it's far more important to give the soldier the mobility to avoid getting hit at all than it is to give him the ability to absorb a shot or two.

How exactly? You have to be *very* fast to dodge a laser beam.
In real life, I doubt being slightly faster or a bit more agile would magically allow you to dodge enemy fire.
If we assume a reasonably high level of technology, a sufficiently big and heavy suit of armor could presumably achieve anything your small light soldiers could, simply because there's room for so much extra gear. Servo engines, jetpacks, anti-gravity units and so on and so on.

Quote:
Talroth - I wouldn't worry too much about having the suit survive in a wide range of environments. The US military has different uniforms for arctic, jungle, desert, etc. environments, and not just in terms of what kinds of camouflage are used. I see no reason why different suits wouldn't be developed for different environments. What I described earlier would be a vacuum/general-purpose suit, but you'd probably have different needs in a gravity well, let alone one with atmosphere or, say, sulfuric acid continually raining from the sky.

Good point, except the US military operates on the assumption that you fight in one kind of environment at a time. Your soldiers in Iraq aren't going to have to worry about jungle or arcttic warfare. These guys might, since they'd probably be fighting over an entire planet at a time.

The advantage I could see to "your" design would be much simpler. Economy and numbers. A big catch-all power armor suit would probably not be cheap, so you'd give it only to your best soldiers (just like space marines in WH40k), while the vast majority of your forces use your kind of equipment. Smaller, lighter, simpler, and enables them to afford ten times bigger forces...

Anyway, I'd say realism is definitely overrated in this case. Space marines look cool, that's all there is to it.

Quote:
Are these 'Space Marines' going to be doing any beach landings? If not, then they won't really be Marines will they?

Airdropping onto a planet from space sounds like a beach landing to me...

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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message Derakon    Member since: 3/30/2004  From: California, USA
 Posted - 5/23/2007 7:51:42 PM
A big, heavy suit requires a bigger powerplant/more batteries and heavier lifting apparatus (even given antigrav, you'll need to input a certain amount of energy to get a certain amount of lifting force to accelerate your soldier). In vacuum, there is no top speed; thus, acceleration is all that really matters. Again, it comes down to how exactly your tech works, but I could easily see the economics of power generation working out such that a smaller suit would give you better maneuverability than a larger one. I think your basic assumption here is that you can pretty much strap whatever gear you like onto the suit, beef up the powerplant, and get equivalent maneuverability; I'm not assuming that, and thus am getting different results.

As for the calibre of the weapons I'm talking about - modern armor may protect you from one bullet. It might even protect you against several bullets. You'll still be hurt by the first, and badly hurt by the next few. Just because you survive getting shot doesn't mean that you're combat-capable. Of course the guns that "my" soldiers would carry would be capable of dealing with the armor that "my" soldiers are wearing. The first few bullets might be stopped, but the target would be injured, if not killed, by impact trauma and any bullets that managed to penetrate weakened armor. For light infantry against heavy infantry (what we're basically talking about in this supposed conflight), to some extent the same thing applies; throw enough bullets at anything and eventually it'll break. But realistically, that's when my side starts escalating - the soldiers carrying specialized weaponry start using it (and anyone with grenade-equivalents lobs 'em in), and we call for armored support. ;)

As far as robots are concerned, sure, realistically, combat will be automated in the future. But most people aren't interested in playing as a robot, or even as a human controlling a robot by remote control (since then what's ultimately happening is that an actual human is controlling a simulated human who is controlling a robot...it's just silly). Thus we introduce the human element, assume it's required, and then find some way to make it plausible.
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message spartanx    Member since: 11/18/2004  From: Yokosuka, Japan
 Posted - 5/23/2007 8:04:17 PM
Quote:
Original post by Derakon
A big, heavy suit...




For the emperor!

I don't care if "space marine" has any issues with linguistic prescription - it sounds damned cool and I'm sticking with it. :)
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message Talroth    Member since: 8/27/2003  From: Charlottetown, Canada
 Posted - 5/23/2007 8:56:36 PM
There are limits to how big powered suits can get. Much larger than the space suits we have today, and your soldiers can no longer take cover. A 12 foot tall powered combat suit would be expensive and make for a far easier target. Smaller troops can hide and take cover, and fit places larger armour can't.

As for having different armours for different 'climates' I don't really see much of a reason to do it. Conditions on different planets are likely to change easily (such as going from extreme heat to extreme cold between night and day) and a suit that has 'bolt on' protection for really odd ball conditions that are found on only a few planets of interest would likely be more cost effective.

As for "amphibian assault troops", well, what if they're stationed somewhere to guard something? "Amphibious Assault and Defence Troops"? How about when they're off on reconnaissance?

The troops aren't marine. They ARE marines, and one of them IS a marine. The adjective has to do with the sea, the noun has little to do with it. Take the world 'computer', "One that computes", referring to a Person. The work is no longer done by a Human, the word is no longer used to mean a human, therefore should a new word have been developed to describe these new things that are different but do what the old ones by the same name did, just in a little different way?
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message LessBread  Moderator  Member since: 12/19/2001  From: Fresno, CA, United States
 Posted - 5/23/2007 9:54:35 PM
Quote:
Original post by Talroth
As for "amphibian assault troops", well, what if they're stationed somewhere to guard something? "Amphibious Assault and Defence Troops"? How about when they're off on reconnaissance?


To paraphrase tstrimp question, do US Marines stop being Marines when they're performing guard duty or reconnaissance?

Quote:
Original post by Talroth
The troops aren't marine. They ARE marines, and one of them IS a marine. The adjective has to do with the sea, the noun has little to do with it. Take the world 'computer', "One that computes", referring to a Person. The work is no longer done by a Human, the word is no longer used to mean a human, therefore should a new word have been developed to describe these new things that are different but do what the old ones by the same name did, just in a little different way?


The troops are marine and they are Marines and one of them is a Marine. They got the name Marines because they were marine [1]. The adjective has everything to do with the noun.

The word "computer" was never used to mean human, never a substitute for the word human, any more than the word plumber would be used to mean human. The word described a person who worked a particular job. It was a noun and it still is a noun - which blows a whole in your adjective to noun theory.

If the hypothetical space civilization has it's roots on Earth, then it makes sense to speak of Space Marines - such troops being at the end of a long Earth based tradition of naval infantry. If not, then it doesn't.



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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message Iron Chef Carnage    Member since: 12/6/2002  From: Erie, PA, United States
 Posted - 5/24/2007 1:41:10 AM
Well, I guess if "Mar" is "Sea", we'd need the ancient word for "Universe", which is, if I'm not mistaken, "Uranus".

Hence, "Urines".

QED
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message LessBread  Moderator  Member since: 12/19/2001  From: Fresno, CA, United States
 Posted - 5/24/2007 3:17:56 AM
Quote:
Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
Well, I guess if "Mar" is "Sea", we'd need the ancient word for "Universe", which is, if I'm not mistaken, "Uranus".

Hence, "Urines".

QED


The Latin word for sea is mare. The Spanish word for sea is mar. And according to the origin bit from universe, [Origin: 1325–75; ME < OF univers < L ūniversum, n. use of neut. of ūniversus entire, all, lit., turned into one, equiv. to ūni- uni- + versus (ptp. of vertere to turn)] and for uranus:Also, Ouranos. Classical Mythology. the personification of Heaven and ruler of the world, son and husband of Gaea (Earth) and father of the Titans, who was castrated and dethroned by his youngest son, Cronus, at the instigation of Gaea. And another blurb there describes Uranus as "the earliest supreme god," so Urines wouldn't necessarily be military - although it does say that ouranos is the Greek word for heaven. All of this nomenclature is Earth based too.






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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message TechnoGoth    Member since: 7/1/2003  From: Chester, United Kingdom
 Posted - 5/24/2007 3:34:18 AM
One thing you should consider when it comes to space marines is what is their role in warfare. I personally like to go with the idea that they are more a kin to highly mobile compact tanks rather then soldiers.

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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message Kylotan  Moderator - Scripting Languages and Game Mods  Member since: 3/8/2000  From: Nottingham, United Kingdom
 Posted - 5/24/2007 5:27:37 AM
Just to backtrack a bit, comparing the 'space marine' style idea with the orcs/elves/goblins idea is forgetting that elves and goblins span lots of wide folklore from many countries. They're shared mythology for the large number of people of Western European origin and are owned by everybody and nobody. That's rather different to taking a bit of Aliens, a bit of Warhammer, and a bit of Starcraft.

Talroth's original post seemed to suggest that people should be just as happy at authentically recreating someone else's fiction as they are at authentically recreating history. By all means, draw on existing sources to create something new, but taking the look and feel and name from one recent source and transplanting it almost verbatim into your work is hardly something to be proud of.
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message Talroth    Member since: 8/27/2003  From: Charlottetown, Canada
 Posted - 5/24/2007 9:42:46 AM
Quote:
Original post by Kylotan
Just to backtrack a bit, comparing the 'space marine' style idea with the orcs/elves/goblins idea is forgetting that elves and goblins span lots of wide folklore from many countries. They're shared mythology for the large number of people of Western European origin and are owned by everybody and nobody. That's rather different to taking a bit of Aliens, a bit of Warhammer, and a bit of Starcraft.

Talroth's original post seemed to suggest that people should be just as happy at authentically recreating someone else's fiction as they are at authentically recreating history. By all means, draw on existing sources to create something new, but taking the look and feel and name from one recent source and transplanting it almost verbatim into your work is hardly something to be proud of.


Actually my point was that people often call similar fictions ripoffs of other works, when the similarities aren't really that close, and things that are alike in each work are like that for reasons.


No one has shown how to have a human soldier that can be landed on a random planet to fight a battle over something, that doesn't likely end up sharing a lot of visual features of common soldiers, and is logical and mostly practical looking in design.

There are only so many ways to put a hardshell over a human's body without having to cut bits off.

As for only using robots. How many ways in science fiction have AI been a main part of the plot that leads to destruction?

*Pissed off programmer plans to rule the empire himself! And puts 'bonus content' in the AI.
*Careless programmer leaving system open to hackers
*AI evolving itself and deciding little pink squishy things make a funny sound when their heads are stepped on by 1000 Tonne walkers.

Plus, who cares if a bunch of cheap robots die on your computer screen? A lot more emotions connected to hearing a human like scream of pain as your pixel men turn to pixel pools of blood, than a few sparks and a powering down sound.
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message Jokke    Member since: 5/23/2007  From: Stockholm, Sweden
 Posted - 5/25/2007 7:07:58 AM
In starcraft, a space marine is heavy. In the Starcraft Ghost trailer they make a big clonk noise when they walk. That kind of marine would crash through the floor of any building that's not made armoured concrete. Not to mention how fast they'll sink in a marsh or swamp. Still, like mechas who have similar problems, they're cool... :)
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message PhoenixV    Member since: 9/24/2005  From: Brisbane, Australia
 Posted - 5/25/2007 7:28:22 AM
Quote:
Original post by Kylotan
That's rather different to taking a bit of Aliens, a bit of Warhammer, and a bit of Starcraft.


Don't forget Doom, he was spose to be a space based Marine too.

Haven't all Space Marines in popular fiction/games/movies been voiced by Americans? I think internationally most people classify American infantry generically as Marines, dunno what you yanks call them though. Makes sense then that a US based space troop would be called a Marine too.
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message Derakon    Member since: 3/30/2004  From: California, USA
 Posted - 5/25/2007 10:38:39 AM
Quote:
Original post by PhoenixVHaven't all Space Marines in popular fiction/games/movies been voiced by Americans? I think internationally most people classify American infantry generically as Marines, dunno what you yanks call them though. Makes sense then that a US based space troop would be called a Marine too.
I think actually that many people view the Marines as America's shock troops - the best of the best. Regardless of whether or not this is appropriate, it does tend to get them extra attention when it comes to character design. You want your elite troops to be stompy, yeah?
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message AGameDesigner    Member since: 5/13/2007
 Posted - 5/25/2007 10:58:33 AM
I'd picture future to have thin plates of an Aluminium like material, that has the hardness of Titanium. It would be light and tough at the same time. As for the name "Space Marines", I think it is over-used and that it looks more creative if you use a different name.

Astro-Legionaires
Cosmo-Legionaires
Astro-Warriors
Cosmo-Warriors
Astro-Knights

you get the idea..
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message tstrimp    Member since: 10/16/2002  From: North Liberty, IA, United States
 Posted - 5/25/2007 11:01:31 AM
Quote:
Original post by AGameDesigner
Astro-Legionaires
Cosmo-Legionaires
Astro-Warriors
Cosmo-Warriors
Astro-Knights


The problem is, all of those sound stupid.
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message LessBread  Moderator  Member since: 12/19/2001  From: Fresno, CA, United States
 Posted - 5/25/2007 11:06:39 AM
Quote:
Original post by PhoenixV
Quote:
Original post by Kylotan
That's rather different to taking a bit of Aliens, a bit of Warhammer, and a bit of Starcraft.


Don't forget Doom, he was spose to be a space based Marine too.

Haven't all Space Marines in popular fiction/games/movies been voiced by Americans? I think internationally most people classify American infantry generically as Marines, dunno what you yanks call them though. Makes sense then that a US based space troop would be called a Marine too.


Generic infantry? troopers, troops, grunts, g.i.'s, humps, sad sacks, ...

Soldiers, really. In the Army they're soldiers, in the Navy, seamen, in the Air Force, airmen, in the Marine Corps, marines.
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message AGameDesigner    Member since: 5/13/2007
 Posted - 5/25/2007 11:15:32 AM
Quote:
Original post by tstrimp
Quote:
Original post by AGameDesigner
Astro-Legionaires
Cosmo-Legionaires
Astro-Warriors
Cosmo-Warriors
Astro-Knights


The problem is, all of those sound stupid.



I don't think Space Marine sounds very flashy either. In 40K terms, "Grey Knights", "Dark Angels" and "Space Wolves" sound better IMO.
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message tstrimp    Member since: 10/16/2002  From: North Liberty, IA, United States
 Posted - 5/25/2007 11:21:05 AM
Quote:
Original post by AGameDesigner
I don't think Space Marine sounds very flashy either. In 40K terms, "Grey Knights", "Dark Angels" and "Space Wolves" sound better IMO.


You may like them better but none of them convey the message of exactly what they do quite like the term Space Marines do.
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message ToohrVyk    Member since: 9/12/2002  From: Paris, France
 Posted - 5/25/2007 11:54:01 AM
Frontiersmen is a nice name.

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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message jbadams  Moderator - Help Wanted  Member since: 9/26/2002  From: Seaford, Australia
 Posted - 5/25/2007 12:06:30 PM
Is the game good? Is the setting interesting? If yes, then stop bothering me about the name of a unit. If no, renaming a single unit probably isn't going to drag it out of the mud.
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message Leo_E_49    Member since: 8/19/2005  From: Stanford, CA, United States
 Posted - 5/25/2007 12:07:13 PM
Book

The original source of the space marine concept. I would highly recommend that people read this book to get an idea as to where it came from. Space marines were originally designed as a propaganda machine in the story for ensuring that the human forces were seen as invincible. They would terrorise enemy settlements to ensure that an easy surrender would be achieved. I like Heinlein's original portrayal of the space marine better than any portrayal since (his book, not the movie made later). There can be a much deeper meaning to the space marine concept than just as a "unit".
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message LessBread  Moderator  Member since: 12/19/2001  From: Fresno, CA, United States
 Posted - 5/25/2007 1:17:11 PM
Shock troopers, special forces, tormentors ...
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message MSW    Member since: 10/22/2000
 Posted - 5/25/2007 3:05:41 PM
The way wars are faught, and the tasks of the military divisions involved historicaly changes over time.

The modern US Army and Airforce divisions are now largely in the trasportation buisness...This wasn't so much the case less then a hundred years ago.

Calling your futureistic forces Space Marines assumes a little too much IMHO. Space is really huge and unless you give each marine floating out there a FTL drive on thier suit...well there really isn't much out there to take cover behind. And the distance seperateing units in such potential battles would be in the hundreds if not millions of miles (with enough advancement in rader you could easily detect something as small as a paperclip within such a volume of vaccume). Predictably victory in battle would largely depend on who shoots first.

and Power armer, such as seen in WH40K, anime, etc..Is completely improbable. This is because the overcomplication required to develop a exoskeletol structure with external joints that completely match and mimic the functionality of the operators internal skeletol joints of sufficent material strength to withstand the intended load stresses. No matter how much technology you throw at all the other exosuit technical problems you still have to make sure both the operator and the suits joints match...then multiply that problem by the multitude of differences between the individual operators, there is never be such thing as a one size fits all exosuit.
There are reasons why those stunt guys can only shuffle about in those gaudy giant robot costumes on the Power Rangers. ;)
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message Talroth    Member since: 8/27/2003  From: Charlottetown, Canada
 Posted - 5/25/2007 3:39:32 PM
Quote:
Original post by MSW
Calling your futureistic forces Space Marines assumes a little too much IMHO. Space is really huge and unless you give each marine floating out there a FTL drive on thier suit...well there really isn't much out there to take cover behind. And the distance seperateing units in such potential battles would be in the hundreds if not millions of miles (with enough advancement in rader you could easily detect something as small as a paperclip within such a volume of vaccume). Predictably victory in battle would largely depend on who shoots first.


You do know that 'space marines' don't fight in space right? Kind of like how modern marines rarely actually fight on or even all that near to water. Spaceships would move them around, and then the Marines are landed on planets and that to take control over them.

Quote:

and Power armer, such as seen in WH40K, anime, etc..Is completely improbable. This is because the overcomplication required to develop a exoskeletol structure with external joints that completely match and mimic the functionality of the operators internal skeletol joints of sufficent material strength to withstand the intended load stresses. No matter how much technology you throw at all the other exosuit technical problems you still have to make sure both the operator and the suits joints match...then multiply that problem by the multitude of differences between the individual operators, there is never be such thing as a one size fits all exosuit.
There are reasons why those stunt guys can only shuffle about in those gaudy giant robot costumes on the Power Rangers. ;)


I'm not a medical student, but my understanding is that all human's joints, baring deformities, work the same way, have the same basic angles, and the only real variable is the distance between joints. A few threaded rods that let something be resized aren't exactly rocket science.
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Reply Quoting This MessageEdit Message MSW    Member since: 10/22/2000
 Posted - 5/25/2007 6:58:37 PM
Quote:
Original post by Talroth
You do know that 'space marines' don't fight in space right? Kind of like how modern marines rarely actually fight on or even all that near to water. Spaceships would move them around, and then the Marines are landed on planets and that to take control over them.


Of course that assumes that we still use the word marines by the time we are capable of transverseing to planets light years away. space travel is nothing like sea travel, and planetary landing and control is nothing like storming onto a beach.

Quote:

I'm not a medical student, but my understanding is that all human's joints, baring deformities, work the same way, have the same basic angles, and the only real variable is the distance between joints. A few threaded rods that let something be resized aren't exactly rocket science.


Maybe your not a medical student, but I'm sure you realise that knee joints are nothing like hip joints...and that is the real trick, engineering a nice form fitting exoskeleton joint that can duplicate the operation of the operators internal skeleton joint..even the difficult and all to often overlooked ones... Without those hip joints/shoulder joints/backbones there is no way the exosuit will prove anywhere near as effective in mobility and carrying capacity as depicted in WH40K...no matter how much power and strength the suit has...

Also I wasn't talking about the distance between joints, but thanks for reminding me. More like how are bodies are adapted to our particular centers of inertia, male and female diffrences in that reguard, and how power suits are all to often depicted in complete opposition to that. Huge heavy feet help make toys stand up...but try running around, duplicateing those WH40K actions, with 50lbs of clown shoes strapped to each foot...throws your balance off big time.
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