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| About Tesselation |
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ma_hty Member since: 9/12/2007 From: Hong Kong |
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 Posted - 1/22/2009 8:28:59 AM |
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| Hi All, How many polygons per 3D character should be used for a decent 3D game? More precisely, how many polygons per 3D character are usually used in Doom 3 approximately? Thanks. |
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RobTheBloke Member since: 6/22/2002 From: oxford, United Kingdom |
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Posted - 1/22/2009 9:12:19 AM |
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Quote: As many as are needed. Ultimately it's vertex count that's important, not poly count - and the limit for that depends entirely on your game. i.e. Soul Caliber will have higher resolution characters than GTA4, because 2 characters on screen is a lot cheaper than fifty. Quote: Who cares? It's an entirely pointless question to ask. |
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TheMonkeyFromMyShoe Member since: 1/16/2009 From: Unknown Region |
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Posted - 1/22/2009 1:41:17 PM |
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| In my opinion this is a completely useless question, since a decent 3D character is usually determined by your modeling skills. It also depends what type of game this is. And if your modeling the main character or what, a character with 2k polys can look much better than a character with 18k polys. It all depends on the modelers skill and quality. But to answer your question any ways, Doom3 uses about 4-6k polys for most chars usually in the 4,500 - 5,500 range. As for games like GOW they can hit 10,000 on one of the main characters. So forget about poly count and do what suites your game, engine, skill. |
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ma_hty Member since: 9/12/2007 From: Hong Kong |
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Posted - 1/22/2009 7:36:32 PM |
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| Opps... I'm sorry. I should have made my question more clearly in the first place. The reason why I'm asking that is because I'm writing an article about rendering. And, I want to give an example of the number of polygons per model for the readers to have a brief idea of the number. Of course, any number of polygons per model can be used depending on the application. That's why I narrowed down my question to some well-known 3D games. |
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RobTheBloke Member since: 6/22/2002 From: oxford, United Kingdom |
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Posted - 1/26/2009 6:47:40 AM |
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| Number of polygons is a pointless metric though. You can have 1 polygon with 100,000 vertices, or you can have 100,000 polygons that use 3 vertices. It's the vertex count that more accurately reflects the GPU cost of the character.... Back in the days of the xbox1/PS2 that count would have been 1k to 2k. For the 360/PS3 you'll probably be in the region of 2k to 5k, depending on the type of game. |
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ma_hty Member since: 9/12/2007 From: Hong Kong |
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Posted - 1/26/2009 11:13:35 AM |
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| Funny RobTheBloke... |
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dpadam450 Member since: 11/18/2005 From: Bellevue, WA, United States |
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Posted - 1/26/2009 5:47:06 PM |
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Quote: What is a polygon: a triangle. triangle = 3 vertices. How can you have 1 triangle made up of 100,000 vertices. What you mean to say is that computers draw triangles and that polycount doesn't have an exact correlation to triangles, though its pretty close. I hate when people say you cant answer these questions. Doom I believe someone got the models ripped out and they are like 6000 polys. In a typical game you need to realize there are levels of detail, so a character model will be up-close lots of polygons, and far away not that many. But a typical hi-poly will sit most likely (and it really does vary...ALOT like they say), between 3,000 to 15,000. |
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RobTheBloke Member since: 6/22/2002 From: oxford, United Kingdom |
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Posted - 1/27/2009 8:25:51 AM |
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Quote: Oh dear. Oh deary deary me. Are you serious? I'm truly amazed that someone who studies at digipen doesn't have a clue what a polygon is. Most people are taught this stuff in primary school... Quote: I never said triangle - you did. A polygon can have 100,000 vertices - I suggest you look it up! Quote: No. I said what i said, and I was 100% correct when i said it. I said that the Polycount doesn't have an exact correlation to the vertex count. Since a triangle is a subset of a polygon, it also follows that triangle-count doesn't have a correlation to the number of vertices. Quote: Which will be split into 2 data sets. Vertex data, and index data. The vertex counts will be nearer 2000, with a lot of vertices being shared between triangles. Let's assume that the index count is 18000 (for your 6000 tris). The vertex processing cost when thrown at the GPU is 2000 - not 18,000. You could double the number of indices to 36,000 (maybe to draw all the polys as double sided) but your vertex processing cost is still 2000. Your computational cost for skinning, transforming, and lighting those vertices is therefore dependent on vertex count and nothing else. The fragment shader cost for an asset will depend on how many polys are *not* culled, and the total area of all rendered polys with respect to the screen size. The fragment cost therefore changes and is not really a reliable performance metric. Quote: It doesn't vary that much if you look at the vertex count - and the vertex count is the reliable metric - not the poly count. |
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MARS_999 GDNet+ Member since: 3/6/2001 From: Sioux Falls, SD, United States |
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 Posted - 1/27/2009 1:33:23 PM |
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| He is correct a triangle is made up of three vertices, and all angles = 180 degrees. A polygon is defined as 1 : a closed plane figure bounded by straight lines 2 : a closed figure on a sphere bounded by arcs of great circle hence the arbitrary amount of vertices can be used. |
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ma_hty Member since: 9/12/2007 From: Hong Kong |
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Posted - 1/29/2009 4:00:31 PM |
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Quote: Well, you can implement you software render this way easily. However, I have never noticed any implementation like that for GPU (i.e. reuse vertex shader result for indexed elements). As a matter of fact, it is not feasible this way in most cases. A vertex shared by some triangles doesn't imply these triangles share the same attributes. For instance, normals, colors and texture coordinates are not. Do you have any solid reference to support your words, RobTheBloke? |
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swiftcoder Member since: 7/3/2003 From: Boston, MA, United States |
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Posted - 1/29/2009 4:09:06 PM |
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Quote:This is what the vertex cache is for. Sure, Rob is looking at an ideal view of the system, but in practice you wont have to run vertex shaders on anywhere near 18,000 vertices, given the 2,000 vertex count. Quote:A vertex count of 2,000 includes all duplicate positions. OpenGL and Direct3D cannot render from separate indices for each component. Tristam MacDonald - swiftcoding |
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dpadam450 Member since: 11/18/2005 From: Bellevue, WA, United States |
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Posted - 1/29/2009 5:06:08 PM |
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Quote: Ok...my bad, lets get all arguing at me: A polygon is a collection of triangles. A GPU draws triangles though, so I went with the base case. Quote: At the end of the day, its composed of triangles. A triangle is 3 vertices. After you polygon is cut up into individual triangles... Your GPU draws that many trianges. Your talking about 2 piplelines, vertex cache/ transformations, and rasterizations. They both have bottlenecks. But....my point was that there IS a correlation to polycount. Here is what you said: Quote: [quote]I said that the Polycount doesn't have an exact correlation to the vertex count." You first said that it is pointless = it has no correlation. So we are on the same page now it seems. Quote: Yes, but in every general case, you will have shared vertices on all models. So you can technically factor that out of the equation. Quote: Yes, but I said polycount holds SOME weight. I said corellation. Two seperate character models, with the same polycount, will draw at about the same time depending on how many shared vertices there are, which again I factored out. And just because someone goes to DigiPen doesn't mean they know EVERYTHING, but I post in this OpenGL forum plenty much, and have a nice engine. There are stupid people at any college. And I'm not one of them. Not sure why you personally attacked me? |
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ma_hty Member since: 9/12/2007 From: Hong Kong |
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Posted - 1/30/2009 1:36:59 AM |
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Quote: dpadam450, I don't think RobTheBloke is attacking you in personal sense. He have an attitude problem in general. However, I do believe he mean good (at least he is trying to offer some information). The term "polygon" can be misleading. My fault. When I said polygon, I'm referring triangle precisely, as triangular mesh is the dominating form of 3D model for rendering. For some reason, most articles I read using the term "polygon" this way. ... Quote: By the way, thanks swiftcoder. I really missed that. |
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