• Create Account

### #ActualServant of the Lord

Posted 16 July 2012 - 10:48 PM

*snip*
[...] AND logic (which is what && is for).
[...] and && when I mean logical logical AND.

[...] you're faking multiple logical ANDs

I presume you mean logical OR (operator ||), correct?

</facepalm> Yes, logical OR.

and using more lines to do so

Depends on how you format your code. I'd probably break the if condition into multiple lines if it was that long anyway. But that's me.

Certainly, I typically write longer comparisons like this:
if(blah || blah || blah
|| blah || blah)
{
//...
}

...and, depending on the logic of the function, may even group the options into boolean variables.
bool logicalEvaluationA = (blah || blah || blah);
bool logicalEvaluationB (blah || blah);
if(logicalEvaluationA || logicalEvaluationB)
{

}

...but switch statements just have more visible clutter (to me). Furthermore, the name 'switch()' implies switching, and past usage and experience teaches your mind that that is what those kinds of statements do.

When you read code, you have certain expectations from blocks of code before you even read it. while() implies a loop, as does for(). for() usually implies an iteration or a fixed number of loops, whereas while() usually implies a continuous loop until some condition is meant. if() usually implies conditional logic, if-else() multiple branches, and switch() usually implies a large number of branches.
When these "first glance" expectations are then turned on their head following a closer inspection, my mind has to do a double take, and reevaluate the whole block of code.

Doing things like:
do
{

}
while(false); //Hahah, not actually a loop!

Or:
switch(option)
{
case :
case :
case :
case :
case :
{

} break;
default: //Jokes on you, I'm actually a if-else() statement in disguise!
{

} break;
}

...increase the time it takes (at least for me) to understand code, because my mind has to then backpedal and throw out some previously made common assumptions about the code that is usually true, but in this case is not.

Often times when reading through code, you don't actually have to read the fine details of the code, you can just look at the general picture and understand what it's doing. This is really useful. If the code does what it is expected to do, and looks like it should do, that's good. If you have to manually mentally walk through a piece of code to find out what it actually does, because it breaks expectations, that's not good (but is acceptable if that's what is required - for example, a heavily optimized algorithm).

Reading code (from top of the page downward), you start to build an idea of what the code does.
for(int i = 0; i < myVector.size(); i++)

"...looking at the lady in the red dress? Look again, Neo."
for(int i = 0; i < myVector.size(); i++)
{
//...code...
if((myVector % 2) == 1)
{
i++;
}
//...code...
}

Additional logic that controls the flow of the entire loop is buried in the body of the loop?!

A 'break', 'return', or even 'continue' is fine, because your mind easily parses those keywords and can argument it's understanding of the code very rapidly. It'll take a few moments longer for your mind to recognize the 'i++' alters the flow of the code (and even longer if it's hidden away admist other code), and it may even have to throw out parts of its previous understanding that your mind has already built up, causing even more mentally delay and extra mental, "Let me double check this" processing as it encounters unexpected deviations from the norm.

I don't think I'd use a switch for only two code paths (like in this example), but I might use it if there are more (or if I was switching on strings and the switch was done by hashes and operator == was not, and I cared about that).

Well sure, I'm not at all saying switch()s are bad. I'm not even saying case fall-through is bad. When asked about it originally, I was trying to explain that using a switch() when you really want a single if() or if-else() is undesirable as a default thing to go to, because it makes your code less understandable at-a-glance, and departs from the norm of what is expected that a switch() statement does.

For multiple branches of logic, switch() statements are excellent. For other situations, switch() statements are less desirable. 'Less desirable' may be a fine tradeoff if something else is needed in its place, like speed or memory optimization, but if you are decreasing readability and not gaining anything at all, that's not a good tradeoff - so as a default (but I'm not saying "never" or "always" - there are exceptions), one should go for the most commonly expected solution, so code does what one expects it to do.

An extreme example of such a valid optimization vs code expectation tradeoff would be Duff's Device.
Do you understand that code? Being honest with yourself, how many times did you have to read through it carefully (the first time you ever saw it) before you understood it?

Now this, on the other hand:
int sum = 0;
for(iterator = numbers.begin(); iterator != numbers.end(); iterator++)
{
sum += *iterator;
}

Using a switch() to choose between multiple hashes of a string? Certainly, because you're switching between multiple code branches. When you see a switch() statement, this is your instant expectation from your prior experience with switch statements.
Using a switch() to imitate "if(optionA OR optionB OR optionC)" won't cause too much mental backpedaling, but it will take a bit longer to process because you are failing to take advantage of the instant mental expectation of if()s which are normally used for that purpose... so by default, one should prefer the more common "if( OR OR )" with its built-in mental benefits and syntactical simplicity.

### #4Servant of the Lord

Posted 16 July 2012 - 10:47 PM

*snip*
[...] AND logic (which is what && is for).
[...] and && when I mean logical logical AND.

[...] you're faking multiple logical ANDs

I presume you mean logical OR (operator ||), correct?

</facepalm> Yes, logical OR.

and using more lines to do so

Depends on how you format your code. I'd probably break the if condition into multiple lines if it was that long anyway. But that's me.

Certainly, I typically write longer comparisons like this:
if(blah || blah || blah
|| blah || blah)
{
//...
}

...and, depending on the logic of the function, may even group the options into boolean variables.
bool logicalEvaluationA = (blah || blah || blah);
bool logicalEvaluationB (blah || blah);
if(logicalEvaluationA || logicalEvaluationB)
{

}

...but switch statements just have more visible clutter (to me). Furthermore, the name 'switch()' implies switching, and past usage and experience teaches your mind that that is what those kinds of statements do.

When you read code, you have certain expectations from blocks of code before you even read it. while() implies a loop, as does for(). for() usually implies an iteration or a fixed number of loops, whereas while() usually implies a continuous loop until some condition is meant. if() usually implies conditional logic, if-else() multiple branches, and switch() usually implies a large number of branches.
When these "first glance" expectations are then turned on their head following a closer inspection, my mind has to do a double take, and reevaluate the whole block of code.

Doing things like:
do
{

}
while(false); //Hahah, not actually a loop!

Or:
switch(option)
{
case :
case :
case :
case :
case :
{

} break;
default: //Jokes on you, I'm actually a if-else() statement in disguise!
{

} break;
}

...increase the time it takes (at least for me) to understand code, because my mind has to then backpedal and throw out some previously made common assumptions about the code that is usually true, but in this case is not.

Often times when reading through code, you don't actually have to read the fine details of the code, you can just look at the general picture and understand what it's doing. This is really useful. If the code does what it is expected to do, and looks like it should do, that's good. If you have to manually mentally walk through a piece of code to find out what it actually does, because it breaks expectations, that's not good (but is acceptable if that's what is required - for example, a heavily optimized algorithm).

Reading code (from top of the page downward), you start to build an idea of what the code does.
for(int i = 0; i < myVector.size(); i++)

"...looking at the lady in the red dress? Look again, Neo."
for(int i = 0; i < myVector.size(); i++)
{
//...code...
if((myVector % 2) == 1)
{
i++;
}
//...code...
}

Additional logic that controls the flow of the entire loop is buried in the body of the loop?!

A 'break', 'return', or even 'continue' is fine, because your mind easily parses those keywords and can argument it's understanding of the code very rapidly. It'll take a few moments longer for your mind to recognize the 'i++' alters the flow of the code (and even longer if it's hidden away admist other code), and it may even have to throw out parts of its previous understanding that your mind has already built up, causing even more mentally delay and extra mental, "Let me double check this" processing as it encounters unexpected deviations from the norm.

I don't think I'd use a switch for only two code paths (like in this example), but I might use it if there are more (or if I was switching on strings and the switch was done by hashes and operator == was not, and I cared about that).

Well sure, I'm not at all saying switch()s are bad. I'm not even saying case fall-through is bad. When asked about it originally, I was trying to explain that using a switch() when you really want a single if() or if-else() is undesirable as a default thing to go to, because it makes your code less understandable at-a-glance, and departs from the norm of what is expected that a switch() statement does.

For multiple branches of logic, switch() statements are excellent. For other situations, switch() statements are less desirable. 'Less desirable' may be a fine tradeoff if something else is needed in its place, like speed or memory optimization, but if you are decreasing readability and not gaining anything at all, that's not a good tradeoff - so as a default (but I'm not saying "never" or "always" - there are exceptions), one should go for the most commonly expected solution, so code does what one expects it to do.

An extreme example of such a valid optimization vs code expectation tradeoff would be Duff's Device.
Do you understand that code? Being honest with yourself, how many times did you have to read through it carefully (the first time you ever saw it) before you understood it?

Now this, on the other hand:
int sum = 0;
for(iterator = numbers.begin(); iterator != numbers.end(); iterator++)
{
sum += *iterator;
}

...you didn't even have to read. You already knew, in general, what it did before you even read the fine details of it... and even reading the fine details, you understood it without any mental hiccups or backpedalling, and so having understood it, you continued onward to reading this paragraph of my post - if you were reading real code, you would have continued on reading code further down the page, and the above for() loop wouldn't have interrupted your reading in the least, and certainly wouldn't have caused your understanding of the inner workings of the function to come to a crashing halt like a more extreme example of code-convolution might have.

Using a switch() to choose between multiple hashes of a string? Certainly, because you're switching between multiple code branches. When you see a switch() statement, this is your instant expectation from your prior experience with switch statements.
Using a switch() to imitate "if(optionA OR optionB OR optionC)" won't cause too much mental backpedaling, but it will take a bit longer to process because you are failing to take advantage of the instant mental expectation of if()s which are normally used for that purpose... so by default, one should prefer the more common "if( OR OR )" with its built-in mental benefits and syntactical simplicity.

### #3Servant of the Lord

Posted 16 July 2012 - 10:24 PM

*snip*
[...] AND logic (which is what && is for).
[...] and && when I mean logical logical AND.

[...] you're faking multiple logical ANDs

I presume you mean logical OR (operator ||), correct?

</facepalm> Yes, logical OR.

and using more lines to do so

Depends on how you format your code. I'd probably break the if condition into multiple lines if it was that long anyway. But that's me.

Certainly, I typically write longer comparisons like this:
if(blah || blah || blah
|| blah || blah)
{
//...
}

...and, depending on the logic of the function, may even group the options into boolean variables.
bool logicalEvaluationA = (blah || blah || blah);
bool logicalEvaluationB (blah || blah);
if(logicalEvaluationA || logicalEvaluationB)
{

}

...but switch statements just have more visible clutter (to me). Furthermore, the name 'switch()' implies switching, and past usage and experience teaches your mind that that is what those kinds of statements do.

When you read code, you have certain expectations from blocks of code before you even read it. while() implies a loop, as does for(). for() usually implies an iteration or a fixed number of loops, whereas while() usually implies a continuous loop until some condition is meant. if() usually implies conditional logic, if-else() multiple branches, and switch() usually implies a large number of branches.
When these "first glance" expectations are then turned on their head following a closer inspection, my mind has to do a double take, and reevaluate the whole block of code.

Doing things like:
do
{

}
while(false); //Hahah, not actually a loop!

Or:
switch(option)
{
case :
case :
case :
case :
case :
{

} break;
default: //Jokes on you, I'm actually a if-else() statement in disguise!
{

} break;
}

...increase the time it takes (at least for me) to understand code, because my mind has to then backpedal and throw out some previously made common assumptions about the code that is usually true, but in this case is not.

Often times when reading through code, you don't actually have to read the fine details of the code, you can just look at the general picture and understand what it's doing. This is really useful. If the code does what it is expected to do, and looks like it should do, that's good. If you have to manually mentally walk through a piece of code to find out what it actually does, because it breaks expectations, that's not good (but is acceptable if that's what is required - for example, a heavily optimized algorithm).

Reading code (from top of the page downward), you start to build an idea of what the code does.
for(int i = 0; i < myVector.size(); i++)

...looking at the lady in the red dress? Look again, Neo

Additional logic that controls the flow of the entire loop is buried in the body of the loop?!
A 'break', 'return', or even 'continue' is fine, because your mind easily parses those keywords and can argument it's understanding of the code very rapidly. It'll take a few moments longer for your mind to recognize the 'i++' alters the flow of the code (and even longer if it's hidden away admist other code), and it may even have to throw out parts of its previous understanding that your mind has already built up, causing even more mentally delay and extra mental, "Let me double check this" processing as it encounters unexpected deviations from the norm.

I don't think I'd use a switch for only two code paths (like in this example), but I might use it if there are more (or if I was switching on strings and the switch was done by hashes and operator == was not, and I cared about that).

Well sure, I'm not at all saying switch()s are bad. I'm not even saying case fall-through is bad. When asked about it originally, I was trying to explain that using a switch() when you really want a single if() or if-else() is undesirable as a default thing to go to, because it makes your code less understandable at-a-glance, and departs from the norm of what is expected that a switch() statement does.

For multiple branches of logic, switch() statements are excellent. For other situations, switch() statements are less desirable. 'Less desirable' may be a fine tradeoff if something else is needed in its place, like speed or memory optimization, but if you are decreasing readability and not gaining anything at all, that's not a good tradeoff - so as a default (but I'm not saying "never" or "always" - there are exceptions), one should go for the most commonly expected solution, so code does what one expects it to do.

An extreme example of such a valid [i]optimization vs code expectation
Do you understand that code? Being honest with yourself, how many times did you have to read through it carefully (the first time you ever saw it) before you understood it?

Now this, on the other hand:
int sum = 0;
for(iterator = numbers.begin(); iterator != numbers.end(); iterator++)
{
sum += *iterator;
}

...you didn't even have to read. You already knew, in general, what it did before you even read the fine details of it... and even reading the fine details, you understood it without any mental hiccups or backpedalling, and so having understood it, you continued onward to reading this paragraph of my post - if you were reading real code, you would have continued on reading code further down the page, and the above for() loop wouldn't have interrupted your reading in the least, and certainly wouldn't have caused your understanding of the inner workings of the function to come to a crashing halt like a more extreme example of code-convolution might have.

Using a switch() to choose between multiple hashes of a string? Certainly, because you're switching between multiple code branches. When you see a switch() statement, this is your instant expectation from your prior experience with switch statements.
Using a switch() to imitate "if(optionA OR optionB OR optionC)" won't cause too much mental backpedaling, but it will take a bit longer to process because you are failing to take advantage of the instant mental expectation of if()s which are normally used for that purpose... so by default, one should prefer the more common "if( OR OR )" with its built-in mental benefits and syntactical simplicity.

### #2Servant of the Lord

Posted 16 July 2012 - 10:22 PM

*snip*
[...] AND logic (which is what && is for).
[...] and && when I mean logical logical AND.

[...] you're faking multiple logical ANDs

I presume you mean logical OR (operator ||), correct?

</facepalm> Yes, logical OR.

and using more lines to do so

Depends on how you format your code. I'd probably break the if condition into multiple lines if it was that long anyway. But that's me.

Certainly, I typically write longer comparisons like this:
if(blah || blah || blah
|| blah || blah)
{
//...
}

...and, depending on the logic of the function, may even group the options into boolean variables.
bool logicalEvaluationA = (blah || blah || blah);
bool logicalEvaluationB (blah || blah);
if(logicalEvaluationA || logicalEvaluationB)
{

}

...but switch statements just have more visible clutter (to me). Furthermore, the name 'switch()' implies switching, and past usage and experience teaches your mind that that is what those kinds of statements do.

When you read code, you have certain expectations from blocks of code before you even read it. while() implies a loop, as does for(). for() usually implies an iteration or a fixed number of loops, whereas while() usually implies a continuous loop until some condition is meant. if() usually implies conditional logic, if-else() multiple branches, and switch() usually implies a large number of branches.
When these "first glance" expectations are then turned on their head following a closer inspection, my mind has to do a double take, and reevaluate the whole block of code.

Doing things like:
do
{

}
while(false); //Hahah, not actually a loop!

Or:
switch(option)
{
case :
case :
case :
case :
case :
{

} break;
default: //Jokes on you, I'm actually a if-else() statement in disguise!
{

} break;
}

...increase the time it takes (at least for me) to understand code, because my mind has to then backpedal and throw out some previously made common assumptions about the code that is usually true, but in this case is not.

Often times when reading through code, you don't actually have to read the fine details of the code, you can just look at the general picture and understand what it's doing. This is really useful. If the code does what it is expected to do, and looks like it should do, that's good. If you have to manually mentally walk through a piece of code to find out what it actually does, because it breaks expectations, that's not good (but is acceptable if that's what is required - for example, a heavily optimized algorithm).

Reading code (from top of the page downward), you start to build an idea of what the code does.
for(int i = 0; i < myVector.size(); i++)
...looking at the lady in the red dress? Look again, Neo

Additional logic that controls the flow of the entire loop is buried in the body of the loop?!
A 'break', 'return', or even 'continue' is fine, because your mind easily parses those keywords and can argument it's understanding of the code very rapidly. It'll take a few moments longer for your mind to recognize the 'i++' alters the flow of the code (and even longer if it's hidden away admist other code), and it may even have to throw out parts of its previous understanding that your mind has already built up, causing even more mentally delay and extra mental, "Let me double check this" processing as it encounters unexpected deviations from the norm.

I don't think I'd use a switch for only two code paths (like in this example), but I might use it if there are more (or if I was switching on strings and the switch was done by hashes and operator == was not, and I cared about that).

Well sure, I'm not at all saying switch()s are bad. I'm not even saying case fall-through is bad. When asked about it originally, I was trying to explain that using a switch() when you really want a single if() or if-else() is undesirable as a default thing to go to, because it makes your code less understandable at-a-glance, and departs from the norm of what is expected that a switch() statement does.

For multiple branches of logic, switch() statements are excellent. For other situations, switch() statements are less desirable. 'Less desirable' may be a fine tradeoff if something else is needed in its place, like speed or memory optimization, but if you are decreasing readability and not gaining anything at all, that's not a good tradeoff - so as a default (but I'm not saying "never" or "always" - there are exceptions), one should go for the most commonly expected solution, so code does what one expects it to do.

An extreme example of such a valid optimization vs code expectation tradeoff would be Duff's Device.
Do you understand that code? Being honest with yourself, how many times did you have to read through it carefully (the first time you ever saw it) before you understood it?

Now this, on the other hand:
int sum = 0;
for(iterator = numbers.begin(); iterator != numbers.end(); iterator++)
{
sum += *iterator;
}

...you didn't even have to read. You already knew, in general, what it did before you even read the fine details of it... and even reading the fine details, you understood it without any mental hiccups or backpedalling, and so having understood it, you continued onward to reading this paragraph of my post - if you were reading real code, you would have continued on reading code further down the page, and the above for() loop wouldn't have interrupted your reading in the least, and certainly wouldn't have caused your understanding of the inner workings of the function to come to a crashing halt like a more extreme example of code-convolution might have.

Using a switch() to choose between multiple hashes of a string? Certainly, because you're switching between multiple code branches. When you see a switch() statement, this is your instant expectation from your prior experience with switch statements.
Using a switch() to imitate "if(optionA OR optionB OR optionC)" won't cause too much mental backpedaling, but it will take a bit longer to process because you are failing to take advantage of the instant mental expectation of if()s which are normally used for that purpose... so by default, one should prefer the more common "if( OR OR )" with its built-in mental benefits and syntactical simplicity.

### #1Servant of the Lord

Posted 16 July 2012 - 10:18 PM

*snip*
[...] AND logic (which is what && is for).
[...] and && when I mean logical logical AND.

[...] you're faking multiple logical ANDs

I presume you mean logical OR (operator ||), correct?

</facepalm> Yes, logical OR.

and using more lines to do so

Depends on how you format your code. I'd probably break the if condition into multiple lines if it was that long anyway. But that's me.

Certainly, I typically write longer comparisons like this:
if(blah || blah || blah
|| blah || blah)
{
//...
}
...and, depending on the logic of the function, may even group the options into boolean variables.
bool logicalEvaluationA = (blah || blah || blah);
bool logicalEvaluationB (blah || blah);
if(logicalEvaluationA || logicalEvaluationB)
{

}

...but switch statements just have more visible clutter (to me). Furthermore, the name 'switch()' implies switching.
When you read code, you have certain expectations from blocks of code before you even read it. while() implies a loop, as does for(). for() usually implies an iteration or a fixed number of loops, whereas while() usually implies a continuous loop until some condition is meant. if() usually implies conditional logic, if-else() multiple branches, and switch() usually implies a large number of branches.
When these "first glance" expectations are then turned on their head following a closer inspection, my mind has to do a double take, and reevaluate the whole block of code.

Doing things like:
do
{

}
while(false); //Hahah, not actually a loop!
Or:
switch(option)
{
case :
case :
case :
case :
case :
{

} break;
default: //Jokes on you, I'm actually a if-else() statement in disguise!
{

} break;
}
...increase the time it takes (at least for me) to understand code, because my mind has to then backpedal and throw out some previously made common assumptions about the code that is usually true, but in this case is not.

Often times when reading through code, you don't actually have to read the fine details of the code, you can just look at the general picture and understand what it's doing. This is really useful. If the code does what it is expected to do, and looks like it should do, that's good. If you have to manually mentally walk through a piece of code to find out what it actually does, because it breaks expectations, that's not good (but is acceptable if that's what is required - for example, a heavily optimized algorithm).

Reading code (from top of the page downward), you start to build an idea of what the code does.
for(int i = 0

Additional logic that controls the flow of the entire loop is buried in the body of the loop?!
A 'break', 'return', or even 'continue' is fine, because your mind easily parses those keywords and can argument it's understanding of the code very rapidly. It'll take a few moments longer for your mind to recognize the 'i++' alters the flow of the code (and even longer if it's hidden away admist other code), and it may even have to throw out parts of its previous understanding that your mind has already built up, causing even more mentally delay and extra mental, "Let me double check this" processing as it encounters unexpected deviations from the norm.

I don't think I'd use a switch for only two code paths (like in this example), but I might use it if there are more (or if I was switching on strings and the switch was done by hashes and operator == was not, and I cared about that).

Well sure, I'm not at all saying switch()s are bad. I'm not even saying case fall-through is bad. When asked about it originally, I was trying to explain that using a switch() when you really want a single if() or if-else() is undesirable as a default thing to go to, because it makes your code less understandable at-a-glance, and departs from the norm of what is expected that a switch() statement does.

For multiple branches of logic, switch() statements are excellent. For other situations, switch() statements are less desirable. 'Less desirable' may be a fine tradeoff if something else is needed in its place, like speed or memory optimization, but if you are decreasing readability and not gaining anything at all, that's not a good tradeoff - so as a default (but I'm not saying "never" or "always" - there are exceptions), one should go for the most commonly expected solution, so code does what one expects it to do.

An extreme example of such a valid optimization vs code expectation tradeoff would be Duff's Device.
Do you understand that code? Being honest with yourself, how many times did you have to read through it carefully (the first time you ever saw it) before you understood it?

Now this, on the other hand:
int sum = 0;
for(iterator = numbers.begin(); iterator != numbers.end(); iterator++)
{
sum += *iterator;
}
...you didn't even have to read. You already knew, in general, what it did before you even read the fine details of it... and even reading the fine details, you understood it without any mental hiccups or backpedalling, and so having understood it, you continued onward to reading this paragraph of my post - if you were reading real code, you would have continued on reading code further down the page, and the above for() loop wouldn't have interrupted your reading in the least, and certainly wouldn't have caused your understanding of the inner workings of the function to come to a crashing halt like a more extreme example of code-convolution might have.

Using a switch() to choose between multiple hashes of a string? Certainly, because you're switching between multiple code branches. When you see a switch() statement, this is your instant expectation from your prior experience with switch statements.
Using a switch() to imitate "if(optionA OR optionB OR optionC)" won't cause too much mental backpedaling, but it will take a bit longer to process because you are failing to take advantage of the instant mental expectation of if()s which are normally used for that purpose... so by default, one should prefer the more common "if( OR OR )" with its built-in mental benefits and syntactical simplicity.

PARTNERS