@Estabon: While you are correct that you can just plunge in with those tools and achieve something, I'd like to point out a few things:

• If you want to compete with the graphics and physics of high end games, realistically it can take years.
• While usually more suited to the purpose, a custom-written engine can be less robust.
• If you are interested in creating gameplay rather than an engine, starting with an engine can be a fiendish waste of time.
• There's little purpose in attacking someone's tools without justifications. The language/platform/API/tool wars have been raging for many years on many forums without any "winner".

Well, all I have to say is that this dude is interested in programming... and you guys convince him to just give it up!? Maybe he won't program a game... but programming is a very useful skill. It's a lot of fun. And he shouldn't even try because he comes here and finds no support in building an engine? I'm just really annoyed that people recomend to PROGRAMMERS to use a game engine. This website is Gamedev... not game design.. This dude is interested in game devolopement! But, after viewing these messageboards for a few days he lost his confidence in building an engine. Everybody is so quick to make building an engine seem like more trouble than it is fun.. Okay? So I'm saying what I have to say so that maybe I'll inspire somebody that they actually CAN devolope a game and won't settle for using a game engine. Listen dude, I have no problem with game engines. But they are for people who just want to design a game! Do you know what I mean? He took programming classes, and probably never thought about learning 3ds studio max.

---Edit---
Here are some of his quotes:
1) I'm a brand new programmer, I've spent some time in classes learning Java, SQL, PHP, HTML, and VBnet
2) using Unity for beginner developers. I don't feel confident developing a game standalone at this point.
3) and to expand our knowledge of programming.

So let me ask you if this guy REALLY wants to use a game engine or is just convinced by you guys he simply isn't good enough to make an engine...
He's asking where to start game programming, and using a game engine won't help him progress at all!
What's wrong with starting with the Win32 Api or a different basic graphics Api? And... for the most part... he won't get what he wants from a game engine!
So what if it takes him a long time to make a cutting age game? He's into it. And won't be making any progress with programming if he never starts!!!

Maybe it takes some people years to make a cutting age game engine... but that's because he is LEARNING!!! Not because it's complicated. Programming is actually very easy... if someone takes the time to learn.

I'm not attacking people who use a game engine. I'm just making up for all these people crushing programmer's desires to get into game programming.
Get used to it.

@Estabon: While you are correct that you can just plunge in with those tools and achieve something, I'd like to point out a few things:

• If you want to compete with the graphics and physics of high end games, realistically it can take years.
• While usually more suited to the purpose, a custom-written engine can be less robust.
• If you are interested in creating gameplay rather than an engine, starting with an engine can be a fiendish waste of time.
• There's little purpose in attacking someone's tools without justifications. The language/platform/API/tool wars have been raging for many years on many forums without any "winner".

Well, all I have to say is that this dude is interested in programming... and you guys convince him to just give it up!? Maybe he won't program a game... but programming is a very useful skill. It's a lot of fun. And he shouldn't even try because he comes here and finds no support in building an engine? I'm just really annoyed that people recomend to PROGRAMMERS to use a game engine. This website is Gamedev... not game design.. This dude is interested in game devolopement! But, after viewing these messageboards for a few days he lost his confidence in building an engine. Everybody is so quick to make building an engine seem like more trouble than it is fun.. Okay? So I'm saying what I have to say so that maybe I'll inspire somebody that they actually CAN devolope a game and won't settle for using a game engine. Listen dude, I have no problem with game engines. But they are for people who just want to design a game! Do you know what I mean? He took programming classes, and probably never thought about learning 3ds studio max.

---Edit---
Here are some of his quotes:
1) I'm a brand new programmer, I've spent some time in classes learning Java, SQL, PHP, HTML, and VBnet
2) using Unity for beginner developers. I don't feel confident developing a game standalone at this point.
3) and to expand our knowledge of programming.

So let me ask you if this guy REALLY wants to use a game engine or is just convinced by you guys he simply isn't good enough to make an engine...
He's asking where to start game programming, and using a game engine won't help him progress at all!
What's wrong with starting with the Win32 Api or a different basic graphics Api? And... for the most part... he won't get what he wants from a game engine!
So what if it takes him a long time to make a cutting age game? He's into it. And won't be making any progress with programming if he never starts!!!

Maybe it takes some people years to make a cutting age game engine... but that's because he is LEARNING!!! Not because it's complicated. Programming is actually very easy... if someone takes the time to learn.

I'm not attacking people who use a game engine. I'm just making up for all these people crushing programmer's desires to become a game programming.
Get used to it.

@Estabon: While you are correct that you can just plunge in with those tools and achieve something, I'd like to point out a few things:

• If you want to compete with the graphics and physics of high end games, realistically it can take years.
• While usually more suited to the purpose, a custom-written engine can be less robust.
• If you are interested in creating gameplay rather than an engine, starting with an engine can be a fiendish waste of time.
• There's little purpose in attacking someone's tools without justifications. The language/platform/API/tool wars have been raging for many years on many forums without any "winner".

Well, all I have to say is that this dude is interested in programming... and you guys convince him to just give it up!? Maybe he won't program a game... but programming is a very useful skill. It's a lot of fun. And he shouldn't even try because he comes here and finds no support in building an engine? I'm just really annoyed that people recomend to PROGRAMMERS to use a game engine. This website is Gamedev... not game design.. This dude is interested in game devolopement! But, after viewing these messageboards for a few days he lost his confidence in building an engine. Everybody is so quick to make building an engine seem like more trouble than it is fun.. Okay? So I'm saying what I have to say so that maybe I'll inspire somebody that they actually CAN devolope a game and won't settle for using a game engine. Listen dude, I have no problem with game engines. But they are for people who just want to design a game! Do you know what I mean? He took programming classes, and probably never thought about learning 3ds studio max.