Hello to both of you !

Thanks for your detailed answers. As always, i really appreciate it.

I worked very hard those past days on the simulation, and made some progress.

@K_J_M & @bmarci

If you look at the issue with regards to local car coordinates then each wheel has 0 longtitude velocity and (N) Lateral velocity if the car is spinning on the spot.

That is right, but when i look at a point in a system, i use my pointVelocity method which takes angVel in account like you said

But in regards to a stationary car spinning on it's axis the lateral wheel velocity is derived from the car angular velocity.

So, theorically, when spinning on itself, any point velocity depends on angular velocity of the car. That velocity will be tangent to rotation circle and depends on distance to CG. The wikipedia page illustrates this very well : http://upload.wikime...cceleration.PNG

So i have something like that :


So, now, what bmarci said is exactly what i'm doing :

1. Create transform functions between coordinate systems (World, Car, Wheel) and double check if they produce the wanted results.
2. Calculate everything in its own coordinates, eg: wheel forces in wheel space, car forces in car space...etc
3. Forget about steering angle in slip angle/ratio calculations. If you have the right transform functions, that will take care of steering angles.
4. Check the result of the ATAN(lat/long), especialy when dividing by long=0!!! The result should be +-PI/2

That's exactly the way i do things. So that means, i am transforming the point velocity of the wheel (the blue vector on the picture) in wheel coordinates, which as we can see it on the picture will result in both lont/lat velocities, and so in a slip angle which is not 90° when the car is spinning on itself.

So the conclusion is in contradiction with what KJM stated above, but i can't see what is failing in my reasonment. Am i right to not find 90° for a wheel which belongs to the right place on a car spinning on itself ? The point velocity seems good, so if i am supposed to get only lateral velocity, i need a sort of hack, or maybe stay in car coordinates instead of going into wheel system ?

The thing is, i am almost sure i am right on this and that my slip angles are good, because the wheel produce good damping forces to annihilate car angular velocity when spinning on itself. If tires produce 90° slip angles when the car is spinning the car is slowing down of 99% and not 100%.

If my slip angles are good, that would mean that my car problems during cornering lies somewhere else. As i said i have obtained a better result, but i am not sure if my base calculations in slip angles are OK. So i cannot really try to tune pacejka or other things like wheel velocity and weight transfer if the underlying system is not good.

Actually the result i have is very close to the Java source example you can download on marco's website. It seems ok as i have deactivated everything else : weight transfer, decreasing pacejka curve, no more real engine/wheel transmission / rotation. I needed to have a clean working table, sort of.

But when i try the car on my game track it is far from playable. If i use an always increasing, producing high cornering forces curve for lateral pacej, then the car turns very sharply, and i can have somme controled oversteer, but the car will eventually stop in the turning curve instead of keeping some speed.

If i use a realistic pacejka curve, then the car is understeering at high speed, which is good, because i can do high speed turns in a comfortable way. But, if i want to produce oversteer and drift for a sharper curve, it just doesn't happen.

So, what do you think ? Problem in base system calculation ? Pacejka curve tuning ? Maybe i should reactivate some critical feature or system ?

I will try to cast a video of the car later to show try to show you, if interested.

Thanks for your help, my game really needs it

Sorry for the long posts by the way...

EDIT : the main thing here, might be this "the car will eventually stop in the turning curve instead of keeping some speed".

I have the feeling that when i take a sharp turn, even if a great part of the initial velocity will be killed by the lateral forces, and even without pushing throttle, the car should keep more front velocity to come out of the curve. Instead it just stops there with very small to none forward velocity. If i could have this, and manage somehow to mix the best of the 2 results i have with my different pacejka, the game would start to be fun i think.

EDIT2 : those results were obtained with a dummy traction circle (allowing 2*weightLoad traction max), applied only on lateral force for testing purpose.

Hello to both of you !

Thanks for your detailed answers. As always, i really appreciate it.

I worked very hard those past days on the simulation, and made some progress.

@K_J_M & @bmarci

If you look at the issue with regards to local car coordinates then each wheel has 0 longtitude velocity and (N) Lateral velocity if the car is spinning on the spot.

That is right, but when i look at a point in a system, i use my pointVelocity method which takes angVel in account like you said

But in regards to a stationary car spinning on it's axis the lateral wheel velocity is derived from the car angular velocity.

So, theorically, when spinning on itself, any point velocity depends on angular velocity of the car. That velocity will be tangent to rotation circle and depends on distance to CG. The wikipedia page illustrates this very well : http://upload.wikime...cceleration.PNG

So i have something like that :


So, now, what bmarci said is exactly what i'm doing :

1. Create transform functions between coordinate systems (World, Car, Wheel) and double check if they produce the wanted results.
2. Calculate everything in its own coordinates, eg: wheel forces in wheel space, car forces in car space...etc
3. Forget about steering angle in slip angle/ratio calculations. If you have the right transform functions, that will take care of steering angles.
4. Check the result of the ATAN(lat/long), especialy when dividing by long=0!!! The result should be +-PI/2

That's exactly the way i do things. So that means, i am transforming the point velocity of the wheel (the blue vector on the picture) in wheel coordinates, which as we can see it on the picture will result in both lont/lat velocities, and so in a slip angle which is not 90° when the car is spinning on itself.

So the conclusion is in contradiction with what KJM stated above, but i can't see what is failing in my reasonment. Am i right to not find 90° for a wheel which belongs to the right place on a car spinning on itself ? The point velocity seems good, so if i am supposed to get only lateral velocity, i need a sort of hack, or maybe stay in car coordinates instead of going into wheel system ?

The thing is, i am almost sure i am right on this and that my slip angles are good, because the wheel produce good damping forces to annihilate car angular velocity when spinning on itself. If tires produce 90° slip angles when the car is spinning the car is slowing down of 99% and not 100%.

If my slip angles are good, that would mean that my car problems during cornering lies somewhere else. As i said i have obtained a better result, but i am not sure if my base calculations in slip angles are OK. So i cannot really try to tune pacejka or other things like wheel velocity and weight transfer if the underlying system is not good.

Actually the result i have is very close to the Java source example you can download on marco's website. It seems ok as i have deactivated everything else : weight transfer, decreasing pacejka curve, no more real engine/wheel transmission / rotation. I needed to have a clean working table, sort of.

But when i try the car on my game track it is far from playable. If i use an always increasing, producing high cornering forces curve for lateral pacej, then the car turns very sharply, and i can have somme controled oversteer, but the car will eventually stop in the turning curve instead of keeping some speed.

If i use a realistic pacejka curve, then the car is understeering at high speed, which is good, because i can do high speed turns in a comfortable way. But, if i want to produce oversteer and drift for a sharper curve, it just doesn't happen.

So, what do you think ? Problem in base system calculation ? Pacejka curve tuning ? Maybe i should reactivate some critical feature or system ?

I will try to cast a video of the car later to show try to show you, if interested.

Thanks for your help, my game really needs it

Sorry for the long posts by the way...

EDIT : the main thing here, might be this "the car will eventually stop in the turning curve instead of keeping some speed".

I have the feeling that when i take a sharp turn, even if a great part of the initial velocity will be killed by the lateral forces, and even without pushing throttle, the car should keep more front velocity to come out of the curve. Instead it just stops there with very small to none forward velocity. If i could have this, and manage somehow to mix the best of the 2 results i have with my different pacejka, the game would start to be fun i think.

EDIT2 : those results were obtained with a dummy traction circle (allowing 2*weightLoad traction max), applied only on lateral force for testing purpose.

Hello to both of you !

Thanks for your detailed answers. As always, i really appreciate it.

I worked very hard those past days on the simulation, and made some progress.

@K_J_M & @bmarci

If you look at the issue with regards to local car coordinates then each wheel has 0 longtitude velocity and (N) Lateral velocity if the car is spinning on the spot.

That is right, but when i look at a point in a system, i use my pointVelocity method which takes angVel in account like you said

But in regards to a stationary car spinning on it's axis the lateral wheel velocity is derived from the car angular velocity.

So, theorically, when spinning on itself, any point velocity depends on angular velocity of the car. That velocity will be tangent to rotation circle and depends on distance to CG. The wikipedia page illustrates this very well : http://upload.wikime...cceleration.PNG

So i have something like that :


So, now, what bmarci said is exactly what i'm doing :

1. Create transform functions between coordinate systems (World, Car, Wheel) and double check if they produce the wanted results.
2. Calculate everything in its own coordinates, eg: wheel forces in wheel space, car forces in car space...etc
3. Forget about steering angle in slip angle/ratio calculations. If you have the right transform functions, that will take care of steering angles.
4. Check the result of the ATAN(lat/long), especialy when dividing by long=0!!! The result should be +-PI/2

That's exactly the way i do things. So that means, i am transforming the point velocity of the wheel (the blue vector on the picture) in wheel coordinates, which as we can see it on the picture will result in both lont/lat velocities, and so in a slip angle which is not 90° when the car is spinning on itself.

So the conclusion is in contradiction with what KJM stated above, but i can't see what is failing in my reasonment. Am i right to not find 90° for a wheel which belongs to the right place on a car spinning on itself ? The point velocity seems good, so if i am supposed to get only lateral velocity, i need a sort of hack, or maybe stay in car coordinates instead of going into wheel system ?

The thing is, i am almost sure i am right on this and that my slip angles are good, because the wheel produce good damping forces to annihilate car angular velocity when spinning on itself. If tires produce 90° slip angles when the car is spinning the car is slowing down of 99% and not 100%.

If my slip angles are good, that would mean that my car problems during cornering lies somewhere else. As i said i have obtained a better result, but i am not sure if my base calculations in slip angles are OK. So i cannot really try to tune pacejka or other things like wheel velocity and weight transfer if the underlying system is not good.

Actually the result i have is very close to the Java source example you can download on marco's website. It seems ok as i have deactivated everything else : weight transfer, decreasing pacejka curve, no more real engine/wheel transmission / rotation. I needed to have a clean working table, sort of.

But when i try the car on my game track it is far from playable. If i use an always increasing, producing high cornering forces curve for lateral pacej, then the car turns very sharply, and i can have somme controled oversteer, but the car will eventually stop in the turning curve instead of keeping some speed.

If i use a realistic pacejka curve, then the car is understeering at high speed, which is good, because i can do high speed turns in a comfortable way. But, if i want to produce oversteer and drift for a sharper curve, it just doesn't happen.

So, what do you think ? Problem in base system calculation ? Pacejka curve tuning ? Maybe i should reactivate some critical feature or system ?

I will try to cast a video of the car later to show try to show you, if interested.

Thanks for your help, my game really needs it

Sorry for the long posts by the way...

EDIT : the main thing here, might be this "the car will eventually stop in the turning curve instead of keeping some speed".

I have the feeling that when i take a sharp turn, even if a great part of the initial velocity will be killed by the lateral forces, and even without pushing throttle, the car should keep more front velocity to come out of the curve. Instead it just stops there with very small to none forward velocity. If i could have this, and manage somehow to mix the best of the 2 results i have with my different pacejka, the game would start to be fun i think.

Hello to both of you !

Thanks for your detailed answers. As always, i really appreciate it.

I worked very hard those past days on the simulation, and made some progress.

@K_J_M & @bmarci

If you look at the issue with regards to local car coordinates then each wheel has 0 longtitude velocity and (N) Lateral velocity if the car is spinning on the spot.

That is right, but when i look at a point in a system, i use my pointVelocity method which takes angVel in account like you said

But in regards to a stationary car spinning on it's axis the lateral wheel velocity is derived from the car angular velocity.

So, theorically, when spinning on itself, any point velocity depends on angular velocity of the car. That velocity will be tangent to rotation circle and depends on distance to CG. The wikipedia page illustrates this very well : http://upload.wikime...cceleration.PNG

So i have something like that :


So, now, what bmarci said is exactly what i'm doing :

1. Create transform functions between coordinate systems (World, Car, Wheel) and double check if they produce the wanted results.
2. Calculate everything in its own coordinates, eg: wheel forces in wheel space, car forces in car space...etc
3. Forget about steering angle in slip angle/ratio calculations. If you have the right transform functions, that will take care of steering angles.
4. Check the result of the ATAN(lat/long), especialy when dividing by long=0!!! The result should be +-PI/2

That's exactly the way i do things. So that means, i am transforming the point velocity of the wheel (the blue vector on the picture) in wheel coordinates, which as we can see it on the picture will result in both lont/lat velocities, and so in a slip angle which is not 90° when the car is spinning on itself.

So the conclusion is in contradiction with what KJM stated above, but i can't see what is failing in my reasonment. Am i right to not find 90° for a wheel which belongs to the right place on a car spinning on itself ? The point velocity seems good, so if i am supposed to get only lateral velocity, i need a sort of hack, or maybe stay in car coordinates instead of going into wheel system ?

The thing is, i am almost sure i am right on this and that my slip angles are good, because the wheel produce good damping forces to annihilate car angular velocity when spinning on itself. If tires produce 90° slip angles when the car is spinning the car is slowing down of 99% and not 100%.

If my slip angles are good, that would mean that my car problems during cornering lies somewhere else. As i said i have obtained a better result, but i am not sure if my base calculations in slip angles are OK. So i cannot really try to tune pacejka or other things like wheel velocity and weight transfer if the underlying system is not good.

Actually the result i have is very close to the Java source example you can download on marco's website. It seems ok as i have deactivated everything else : weight transfer, decreasing pacejka curve, no more real engine/wheel transmission / rotation. I needed to have a clean working table, sort of.

But when i try the car on my game track it is far from playable. If i use an always increasing, producing high cornering forces curve for lateral pacej, then the car turns very sharply, and i can have somme controled oversteer, but the car will eventually stop in the turning curve instead of keeping some speed.

If i use a realistic pacejka curve, then the car is understeering at high speed, which is good, because i can do high speed turns in a comfortable way. But, if i want to produce oversteer and drift for a sharper curve, it just doesn't happen.

So, what do you think ? Problem in base system calculation ? Pacejka curve tuning ? Maybe i should reactivate some critical feature or system ?

I will try to cast a video of the car later to show try to show you, if interested.

Thanks for your help, my game really needs it

Sorry for the long posts by the way...