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#Actualriuthamus

Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:38 AM

First off, your initial question was "is this worth the effort". People respond to your question to their best knowledge and you dismiss this as "not being helpful". Second thing - this is public forum and you don't "own" this thread, you merely ask people for help/opinion and they're entitled to answer whatever they like as long as it follows the forum rules.


Anything can be subjective and open to interpretation. You can define what I asked as something, and others can define what I ask as something else. When I asked if it is worth the effort I didnt need people to say "spend your time on other things in your development. Make a game first" on the other hand if somebody would have said ( which they did later on ) "What you are talking about is overkill, perhaps you might want to lower your goal since such a request can be handled with far less effort. So in short, what you are speaking of is not worth it. Example here, blah blah blah"

While I appreciate people "looking out for me" I think they do not understand the scope of the situation and I fail to see the need to define that before any request is made. Again, I understand that the posts made were with good intention but I am not some 13 year old would be coder. I am a designer looking to gather information and help my coders when they are ready to tackle the issue. This means that I have all the time in the world to sit here and discuss this stuff. Furthermore, is that not what a forum is about, Discussion? Dismissing a question because the replier feels the poster is not "ready" seems kinda counter intuitive to the overall goal of the forum.

Lastly, while I do not own or run this forum, I am a poster and have the right to try and direct the conversation to the purpose of the OP. Allowing the thread to derail and become a flame war because I am doing something that others feel is out of order seems rather silly. I did not name call or bash anybody or belittle them. I did however provide information as to what I was attempting to learn in a blind hope to redirect the conversation to on topic posts. Feel free to post whatever you like...

Bashing every poster you don't agree with is hardly a good way to get more help here.


I never bashed anybody, i simply expressed why they were focusing on the wrong part of what I as attempting to do here.

And to be honest, they totally have the point. If you ask what you ask you clearly have no idea what you're talking about and they're being helpful trying to convince you that you picked the wrong route there. Seriously, login server with 10k login requests per second? You probably don't want to hear my opinion, but you already wasted too much time arguing here with people that know way more than you and are trying to show you a better approach. But you obviously know everything already, just not how to create the perfect login server?


I never suggested that I know everything. As for time wasted, I would argue otherwise. HPlus added some very good information after the fact which has sparked some research into that area. Again this goes back to focusing on the OP's point. While I may not have clearly defined it ( because of my lack of knowledge ) I was attempting to learn some information on the best practices for making a login server. No where in my post did I ask "should i make a login server before or after the game is made". So opinions such as that which do not follow up with the original information I asked for seem rather... odd to post about. Hell, I would like it if people would have posted their opinion about not doing it till the game is fully done and THEN telling me how they might go about making a login server. ( which Hplus did in a later post and if you will read, i was very happy with )

Your tone in itself can be taken as hostile. Why such an emotion seems to be created god only knows but the goal here was not to piss people off, rather it was to learn how to setup and manage an authentication server. If you dont like that idea say so but dont expect me to take your words and praise them as if they came from god himself. My goal is to learn how to make an authentication server... if I wanted to learn how to create a game I would have made a post that asked "How do I create a game" and it wouldnt be placed in this section of the forum.

I really like the progress and level of execution of your game and the way you try to de-escalate a conflict, but you have a somewhat blind eye on this situation. Posted Image


Perhaps

To answer your question in short: take any cheap (web-)server to handle your logins, before the login process will be the bottleneck, you will have mastered a lot of other challenges not yet encountered.


While... I am not sure that fully answers it, it certainly does help. I have a dedicated server based out of LA, Chicago, and Dallas... all of which are more than capable of handling thousands of requests a second. None of them are currently dealing with that much of a load and none them of them deal with authentication... so I was curious if it was worth the effort to waste 10 days building a site that would track traffic use and spread that page out to have many people bog it down. The purpose of that experiment would be two fold as it would help for us to see how much traffic could be generated and it could help us to determine the overall load that an authentication server would have to handle.

You may be asking, why do you need that right now? And while you all make valid arguments for having a game before such a thing is looked into... I am not certain you understand the situation I am in. If you will notice on all of my posts anywhere on this forum I very rarely share code. This is not because I am a prude but rather because I dont know how it works! I am a designer and a graphics artist by trade. I am good at conveying a message and painting pictures for people. I do not speak the beep boop language and I find it difficult to do so some times. My coders ( 3 of them ) are busy cracking away at he core elements of the game. Would it not be smart for me to look around and invest time in research for future development projects that will arise? Seems like the best thing I could be doing is making sure that all of the coders have the tools and resources they need for when the task will come.

So, i would post here, get some information, do some research, and then go and log that information and research in our Task tracking program. ( which we have ) and assign it to the proper people for when they are ready to tackle it. All the information they would need to code is collected and ready for them. Seems like that would be a best practice to me.

That said, we have everything that minecraft has and then some. We have everything from block creation to destruction as well as the ability to create your own via XML files. We have complex crafting and item augmentation ( like an enchantment system ). We have models and model placement in the world. As of right now we are more or less working on polishing the game with shaders and game content. We are well past the stage of making the engine. So, it would seem to me that I already have a very established setup.

The issue that we found as a dev team ( which I am not sure needed to be brought up by why not since this topic seems to be fully derailed ) was that our initial design was to create the game for single player use and add in multiplayer later. ( the coders wanted to do it that way while I suggested they code from a multiplayer mindset and make single player a server of 1 of 1 ) Now we are 8 months into development and we just took a 2 week setback because we have to rework ALL of our code to work with a server/client setup. Imagine if we would have looked ahead to the future and planned for such a thing before just running in and going all willy nilly. Some times that has to be done and some times it is good to look ahead a bit and plan for such things. I would argue that is the goal of the project lead.

Anyway, I dont want to waste further time dealing with something as fundamental as when we should or should not tackle things. That honestly should be saved for another thread in another section. I appreciate the concern you all have... honestly I do. It means that you value my time and because of that I want to ensure you know that I am not upset or hurt that you would post your wisdom. I was simply looking for an answer on the validity of creating an authentication server and testing out the load ( however blind my scope might have been ). Again, I thank you all for taking the time to post on this thread and share your thoughts. Please do not feel that I dont appreciate that, even if they were in direct opposition of my personal goals/thoughts.

Again thank you for your time and consideration on this thread. I apologize for any annoyance I have caused as that certainly was not my intent.

#1riuthamus

Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:10 AM

First off, your initial question was "is this worth the effort". People respond to your question to their best knowledge and you dismiss this as "not being helpful". Second thing - this is public forum and you don't "own" this thread, you merely ask people for help/opinion and they're entitled to answer whatever they like as long as it follows the forum rules.


Anything can be subjective and open to interpretation. You can define what I asked as something, and others can define what I ask as something else. When I asked if it is worth the effort I didnt need people to say "spend your time on other things in your development. Make a game first" on the other hand if somebody would have said ( which they did later on ) "What you are talking about is overkill, perhaps you might want to lower your goal since such a request can be handled with far less effort. So in short, what you are speaking of is not worth it. Example here, blah blah blah"

While I appreciate people "looking out for me" I think they do not understand the scope of the situation and I fail to see the need to define that before any request is made. Again, I understand that the posts made were with good intention but I am not some 13 year old would be coder. I am a designer looking to gather information and help my coders when they are ready to tackle the issue. This means that I have all the time in the world to sit here and discuss this stuff. Furthermore, is that not what a forum is about, Discussion? Dismissing a question because the replier feels the poster is not "ready" seems kinda counter intuitive to the overall goal of the forum.

Lastly, while I do not own or run this forum, I am a poster and have the right to try and direct the conversation to the purpose of the OP. Allowing the thread to derail and become a flame war because I am doing something that others feel is out of order seems rather silly. I did not name call or bash anybody or belittle them. I did however provide information as to what I was attempting to learn in a blind hope to redirect the conversation to on topic posts. Feel free to post whatever you like...

Bashing every poster you don't agree with is hardly a good way to get more help here.


I never bashed anybody, i simply expressed why they were focusing on the wrong part of what I as attempting to do here.

And to be honest, they totally have the point. If you ask what you ask you clearly have no idea what you're talking about and they're being helpful trying to convince you that you picked the wrong route there. Seriously, login server with 10k login requests per second? You probably don't want to hear my opinion, but you already wasted too much time arguing here with people that know way more than you and are trying to show you a better approach. But you obviously know everything already, just not how to create the perfect login server?


I never suggested that I know everything. As for time wasted, I would argue otherwise. HPlus added some very good information after the fact which has sparked some research into that area. Again this goes back to focusing on the OP's point. While I may not have clearly defined it ( because of my lack of knowledge ) I was attempting to learn some information on the best practices for making a login server. No where in my post did I ask "should i make a login server before or after the game is made". So opinions such as that which do not follow up with the original information I asked for seem rather... odd to post about. Hell, I would like it if people would have posted their opinion about not doing it till the game is fully done and THEN telling me how they might go about making a login server. ( which Hplus did in a later post and if you will read, i was very happy with )

Your tone in itself can be taken as hostile. Why such an emotion seems to be created god only knows but the goal here was not to piss people off, rather it was to learn how to setup and manage an authentication server. If you dont like that idea say so but dont expect me to take your words and praise them as if they came from god himself. My goal is to learn how to make an authentication server... if I wanted to learn how to create a game I would have made a post that asked "How do I create a game" and it wouldnt be placed in this section of the forum.

I really like the progress and level of execution of your game and the way you try to de-escalate a conflict, but you have a somewhat blind eye on this situation. Posted Image


Perhaps

To answer your question in short: take any cheap (web-)server to handle your logins, before the login process will be the bottleneck, you will have mastered a lot of other challenges not yet encountered.


While... I am not sure that fully answers it, it certainly does help. I have a dedicated server based out of LA, Chicago, and Dallas... all of which are more than capable of handling thousands of requests a second. None of them are currently dealing with that much of a load and none them of them deal with authentication... so I was curious if it was worth the effort to waste 10 days building a site that would track traffic use and spread that page out to have many people bog it down. The purpose of that experiment would be two fold as it would help for us to see how much traffic could be generated and it could help us to determine the overall load that an authentication server would have to handle.

You may be asking, why do you need that right now? And while you all make valid arguments for having a game before such a thing is looked into... I am not certain you understand the situation I am in. If you will notice on all of my posts anywhere on this forum I very rarely share code. This is not because I am a prude but rather because I dont know how it works! I am a designer and a graphics artist by trade. I am good at conveying a message and painting pictures for people. I do not speak the beep boop language and I find it difficult to do so some times. My coders ( 3 of them ) are busy cracking away at he core elements of the game. Would it not be smart for me to look around and invest time in research for future development projects that will arise? Seems like the best thing I could be doing is making sure that all of the coders have the tools and resources they need for when the task will come.

So, i would post here, get some information, do some research, and then go and log that information and research in our Task tracking program. ( which we have ) and assign it to the proper people for when they are ready to tackle it. All the information they would need to code is collected and ready for them. Seems like that would be a best practice to me.

That said, we have everything that minecraft has and then some. We have everything from block creation to destruction as well as the ability to create your own via XML files. We have complex crafting and item augmentation ( like an enchantment system ). We have models and model placement in the world. As of right now we are more or less working on polishing the game with shaders and game content. We are well past the stage of making the engine. So, it would seem to me that I already have a very established setup.

The issue that we found as a dev team ( which I am not sure needed to be brought up by why not since this topic seems to be fully derailed ) was that our initial design was to create the game for single player use and add in multiplayer later. ( the coders wanted to do it that way while I suggested they code from a multiplayer mindset and make single player a server of 1 of 1 ) Now we are 8 months into development and we just took a 2 week setback because we have to rework ALL of our code to work with a server/client setup. Imagine if we would have looked ahead to the future and planned for such a thing before just running in and going all willy nilly. Some times that has to be done and some times it is good to look ahead a bit and plan for such things. I would argue that is the goal of the project lead.

Anyway, I dont want to waste further time dealing with something as fundamental as when we should or should not tackle things. That honestly should be saved for another thread in another section. I appreciate the concern you all have... honestly I do. It means that you value my time and because of that I want to ensure you know that I am not upset or hurt that you would post your wisdom. I was simply looking for an answer on the validity of creating an authentication server and testing out the load ( however blind my scope might have been ). Again, I thank you all for taking the time to post on this thread and share your thoughts. Please do not feel that I dont appreciate that, even if they were in direct opposition of my personal goals/thoughts.

Again thank you for your time and consideration on this thread.

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