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#Actualtaby

Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:11 PM

I'm not trying to discount the usefulness of deterministic pseudo-randomness. My concern (if you can call it that) was that most quantum physicists believe that the Universe is non-deterministic at the heart of it all, and so the suggestion of replacing that with a random (non-deterministic) number generator (God's book of random numbers) is... a non-suggestion, since they're already the same thing. Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were saying, but this is why I asked about super-determinism: if we do not replace non-determinism with determinism (local hidden variables), but are adamant in replacing it with something, then super-determinism was the only viable alternative that I could think of.

As for randomness, I think that it's much more clear cut if you consider that if you keep stuffing bits into an entropy assessment machine that it will tell you with pretty good confidence that the string of input bits is random if the string is pretty long and the string pretty much maximizes the Shannon entropy to all orders (as best as possible, given that the string is going to be finite in real life). When you start getting non-maximal entropy at some order, and it doesn't ever get corrected, then you've got something deterministic (pseudo-random) going on deep in the works, like say, a finite period. When I talk about "to all orders", I'm talking about considering not just single bits, but pairs of adjacent bits, triplets, etc (unigrams, digrams, trigrams, etc). Perhaps there are other people here that can clarify a few details of the paper "A Mathematical Theory of Communication" better than I can, but randomness is definitely not an incoherent concept. I wrote a bit about this last winter here, but I had made the ridiculous mistake of breaking the string into uni/di/tri/etc-grams by sliding the window along using steps larger than one. That was a dumb mistake, and I already knew better at the time (but my memory is shit), so perhaps consider the posts that I usually put on here... they take like 50 edits to get right, and even then they're full of errors: now THAT is incoherent.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of "quantum consciousness" per se, but I care so little about it that I'll just let you debate the consciousness and free will things with that philosopher person. I'm sticking to "spin, twin, fin" for now. Does the moon exist when you're not looking at it? What a bullshit question (when asked in that particular way that elevates animals to the level of Universe-warping supergods), as I'm sure you'll agree.

#7taby

Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:10 PM

I'm not trying to discount the usefulness of deterministic pseudo-randomness. My concern (if you can call it that) was that most quantum physicists believe that the Universe is non-deterministic at the heart of it all, and so the suggestion of replacing that with a random (non-deterministic) number generator (God's book of random numbers) is... a non-suggestion, since they're already the same thing. Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were saying, but this is why I asked about super-determinism: if we do not replace non-determinism with determinism (local hidden variables), but are adamant in replacing it with something, then super-determinism was the only viable alternative that I could think of.

As for randomness, I think that it's much more clear cut if you consider that if you keep stuffing bits into an entropy assessment machine that it will tell you with pretty good confidence that the string of input bits is random if the string is pretty long and the string pretty much maximizes the Shannon entropy to all orders (as best as possible, given that the string is going to be finite in real life). When you start getting non-maximal entropy at some order, and it doesn't ever get corrected, then you've got something deterministic (pseudo-random) going on deep in the works, like say, a finite period. When I talk about "to all orders", I'm talking about considering not just single bits, but pairs of adjacent bits, triplets, etc (unigrams, digrams, trigrams, etc). Perhaps there are other people here that can clarify a few details of the paper "A Mathematical Theory of Communication" better than I can, but randomness is definitely not an incoherent concept. I wrote a bit about this last winter here, but I had made the ridiculous mistake of breaking of the string into uni/di/tri/etc by sliding the window along using steps larger than one. That was dumb, so consider the posts that I usually put on here... they take like 50 edits to get right, and even then they're full of errors. Now THAT is incoherent.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of "quantum consciousness" per se, but I care so little about it that I'll just let you debate the consciousness and free will things with that philosopher person. I'm sticking to "spin, twin, fin" for now. Does the moon exist when you're not looking at it? What a bullshit question (when asked in that particular way that elevates animals to the level of Universe-warping supergods), as I'm sure you'll agree.

#6taby

Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:06 PM

I'm not trying to discount the usefulness of deterministic pseudo-randomness. My concern (if you can call it that) was that most quantum physicists believe that the Universe is non-deterministic at the heart of it all, and so the suggestion of replacing that with a random (non-deterministic) number generator (God's book of random numbers) is... a non-suggestion, since they're already the same thing. Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were saying, but this is why I asked about super-determinism: if we do not replace non-determinism with determinism (local hidden variables), but are adamant in replacing it with something, then super-determinism was the only viable alternative that I could think of.

As for randomness, I think that it's much more clear cut if you consider that if you keep stuffing bits into an entropy assessment machine that it will tell you with pretty good confidence that the string of input bits is random if the string is pretty long and the string pretty much maximizes the Shannon entropy to all orders (as best as possible, given that the string is going to be finite in real life). When you start getting non-maximal entropy at some order, and it doesn't ever get corrected, then you've got something deterministic (pseudo-random) going on deep in the works, like say, a finite period. When I talk about "to all orders", I'm talking about considering not just single bits, but pairs of adjacent bits, triplets, etc (unigrams, digrams, trigrams, etc). Perhaps there are other people here that can clarify a few details of the paper "A Mathematical Theory of Communication" better than I can, but randomness is definitely not an incoherent concept. Consider the posts that I usually put on here... they take like 50 edits to get right, and even then they're full of errors. Now THAT is incoherent.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of "quantum consciousness" per se, but I care so little about it that I'll just let you debate the consciousness and free will things with that philosopher person. I'm sticking to "spin, twin, fin" for now. Does the moon exist when you're not looking at it? What a bullshit question (when asked in that particular way that elevates animals to the level of Universe-warping supergods), as I'm sure you'll agree.

#5taby

Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:04 PM

I'm not trying to discount the usefulness of deterministic pseudo-randomness. My concern (if you can call it that) was that most quantum physicists believe that the Universe is non-deterministic at the heart of it all, and so the suggestion of replacing that with a random (non-deterministic) number generator (God's book of random numbers) is... a non-suggestion, since they're already the same thing. Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were saying, but this is why I asked about super-determinism: if we do not replace non-determinism with determinism (local hidden variables), but are adamant in replacing it with something, then super-determinism was the only viable alternative that I could think of.

As for randomness, I think that it's much more clear cut if you consider that if you keep stuffing bits into an entropy assessment machine that it will tell you with pretty good confidence that the string of input bits is random if the string is pretty long and the string pretty much maximizes the Shannon entropy to all orders (as best as possible, given that the string is going to be finite in real life). When you start getting non-maximal entropy at some order, and it doesn't ever get corrected, then you've got something deterministic (pseudo-random) going on deep in the works, like say, a finite period. When I talk about "to all orders", I'm talking about considering not just single bits, bit pairs of adjacent bits, triplets, etc (unigrams, digrams, trigrams, etc). Perhaps there are other people here that can clarify a few details of the paper "A Mathematical Theory of Communication" better than I can, but randomness is definitely not an incoherent concept. Consider the posts that I usually put on here... they take like 50 edits to get right, and even then they're full of errors. Now THAT is incoherent.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of "quantum consciousness" per se, but I care so little about it that I'll just let you debate the consciousness and free will things with that philosopher person. I'm sticking to "spin, twin, fin" for now. Does the moon exist when you're not looking at it? What a bullshit question (when asked in that particular way that elevates animals to the level of Universe-warping supergods), as I'm sure you'll agree.

#4taby

Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:03 PM

I'm not trying to discount the usefulness of deterministic pseudo-randomness. My concern (if you can call it that) was that most quantum physicists believe that the Universe is non-deterministic at the heart of it all, and so the suggestion of replacing that with a random (non-deterministic) number generator (God's book of random numbers) is... a non-suggestion, since they're already the same thing. Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were saying, but this is why I asked about super-determinism: if we do not replace non-determinism with determinism (local hidden variables), but are adamant in replacing it with something, then super-determinism was the only viable alternative that I could think of.

As for randomness, I think that it's much more clear cut if you consider that if you keep stuffing bits into an entropy assessment machine that it will tell you with pretty good confidence that the string of input bits is random if the string is pretty long and the string pretty much maximizes the Shannon entropy to all orders (as best as possible, given that the string is going to be finite in real life). When you start getting non-maximal entropy at some order, and it doesn't ever get corrected, then you've got something deterministic (pseudo-random) going on deep in the works, like say, a finite period. When I talk about "to all orders", I'm talking about considering not just single bits, bit pairs of adjacent bits, triplets, etc (unigrams, digrams, trigrams, etc). Perhaps there are other people here that can clarify a few details of the paper "A Mathematical Theory of Communication" better than I can, but randomness is definitely not an incoherent concept. Consider the posts that I usually put on here... they take like 50 edits to get right, and even then they're full of errors. Now THAT is incoherent.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of "quantum consciousness" per se, but I care so little about it that I'll just let you debate the consciousness and free will things with that philosopher person. I'm sticking to "spin, twin, fin" for now. Does the moon exist when you're not looking at it? What a bullshit question, as I'm sure you'll agree.

#3taby

Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:00 PM

I'm not trying to discount the usefulness of deterministic pseudo-randomness. My concern (if you can call it that) was that most quantum physicists believe that the Universe is non-deterministic at the heart of it all, and so the suggestion of replacing that with a random (non-deterministic) number generator (God's book of random numbers) is... a non-suggestion, since they're already the same thing. Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were saying, but this is why I asked about super-determinism: if we do not replace non-determinism with determinism (local hidden variables), but are adamant in replacing it with something, then super-determinism was the only viable alternative that I could think of.

As for randomness, I think that it's much more clear cut if you consider that if you keep stuffing bits into an entropy assessment machine that it will tell you with pretty good confidence that the string of input bits is random if the string is pretty long and the string pretty much maximizes the Shannon entropy to all orders (as best as possible, given that the string is going to be finite in real life). When you start getting non-maximal entropy at some order, and it doesn't ever get corrected, then you've got something deterministic (pseudo-random) going on deep in the works, like say, a finite period. When I talk about "to all orders", I'm talking about considering not just single bits, bit pairs of adjacent bits, triplets, etc (unigrams, digrams, trigrams, etc). Perhaps there are other people here that can clarify a few details of the paper "A Mathematical Theory of Communication" better than I can, but randomness is definitely not an incoherent concept. Consider the posts that I usually put on here... they take like 50 edits to get right, and even then they're full of errors. Now THAT is incoherent.

I'll let you debate the consciousness and free will thing with the philosopher person. I'm sticking to "spin, twin, fin" for now. Posted Image

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