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#Actualtaby

Posted 21 October 2012 - 11:32 AM

Perhaps I'm missing the point. Isn't the alternative to *local* hidden variables super-determinism?

And yeah, you're right... there is no way to test a finite string to gain a perfect confidence in its randomness. "Pretty good confidence" is pretty good, but not perfect. Don't mention this to a quantum physicist though. I find that it has a really decent chance of unsettling their worldview because a lot of them have a difficult time understanding the difference between "capability of generating information" (non-repetitive states) and "information" (non-repetitive data gathered through measurement of an ensemble of systems in those states). I brought this up recently on a website somewhere, and I got confused but polite responses.

I have no idea why the random number generator would generate the binary point representation of pi specifically, but I see your point there. If the bits in pi are random, then of course that's a good of source as any (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey%E2%80%93Borwein%E2%80%93Plouffe_formula). I just hope that you understand that the test that "I" propose is not my test. It's Shannon's test. He talks about an infinite number of infinite strings (so as to get a good idea of the different "seeds" of the generator), and my only simplification is the assumption that an infinite string would at some point contain all of the sequences found in the other infinite strings, so all "seeds" would eventually get tested anyway. Shannon's test effectively discerns between statistical coincidence and pattern.

I recently picked up an old book in Kindle edition called "Introduction to Information Theory" by John Pierce (inventor of transistor, I think). It was $4! Such a sweet deal.

P.S. I came off seeming kind of harsh and "anti-spiritual" in the last message re: "does the moon exist when you're not observing it". I am not anti-spiritual or anti-religious. I simply find it incredible when someone takes the "observer effect" from science and distorts it to mean that it has a special meaning when it comes to conscious observers. In reality, the entanglement and state collapse related to observation does not require that the photons come from/go into your eyes. It works just as well if the photons come from/go into the back of your head, or from/into a rock, the Sun, OR THE MOON ITSELF, etc. This realization is not anti-spiritual; it's just anti-bullshit. I've seen so-called "spiritual scientists" write passive-aggressive shit like "this is all a matter of opinion, and anyone who denies the possibility is a close-minded savage beast who bathes in the evil dogma". LOL, at the very least, they could try to cover this distortion of theirs by running with the First Nations-friendly idea that all matter is effectively conscious (or has a spirit, anyway), but they wouldn't ever do that because it doesn't elevate humans to any kind of special plane of existence, and that would effectively spoil the happymagic of their pathetic little circle jerk.

#27taby

Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:01 PM

Perhaps I'm missing the point. Isn't the alternative to *local* hidden variables super-determinism?

And yeah, you're right... there is no way to test a finite string to gain a perfect confidence in its randomness. "Pretty good confidence" is pretty good, but not perfect. Don't mention this to a quantum physicist though. I find that it has a really decent chance of unsettling their worldview because a lot of them have a difficult time understanding the difference between "capability of generating information" (non-repetitive states) and "information" (non-repetitive data gathered through measurement of an ensemble of systems in those states). I brought this up recently on a website somewhere, and I got confused but polite responses.

I have no idea why the random number generator would generate the binary point representation of pi specifically, but I see your point there. If the bits in pi are random, then of course that's a good of source as any. I just hope that you understand that the test that "I" propose is not my test. It's Shannon's test. He talks about an infinite number of infinite strings (so as to get a good idea of the different "seeds" of the generator), and my only simplification is the assumption that an infinite string would at some point contain all of the sequences found in the other infinite strings, so all "seeds" would eventually get tested anyway. Shannon's test effectively discerns between statistical coincidence and pattern.

I recently picked up an old book in Kindle edition called "Introduction to Information Theory" by John Pierce (inventor of transistor, I think). It was $4! Such a sweet deal.

P.S. I came off seeming kind of harsh and "anti-spiritual" in the last message re: "does the moon exist when you're not observing it". I am not anti-spiritual or anti-religious. I simply find it incredible when someone takes the "observer effect" from science and distorts it to mean that it has a special meaning when it comes to conscious observers. In reality, the entanglement and state collapse related to observation does not require that the photons come from/go into your eyes. It works just as well if the photons come from/go into the back of your head, or from/into a rock, the Sun, OR THE MOON ITSELF, etc. This realization is not anti-spiritual; it's just anti-bullshit. I've seen so-called "spiritual scientists" write passive-aggressive shit like "this is all a matter of opinion, and anyone who denies the possibility is a close-minded savage beast who bathes in the evil dogma". LOL, at the very least, they could try to cover this distortion of theirs by running with the First Nations-friendly idea that all matter is effectively conscious (or has a spirit, anyway), but they wouldn't ever do that because it doesn't elevate humans to any kind of special plane of existence, and that would effectively spoil the happymagic of their pathetic little circle jerk.

#26taby

Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:00 PM

Perhaps I'm missing the point. Isn't the alternative to *local* hidden variables super-determinism?

And yeah, you're right... there is no way to test a finite string to gain a perfect confidence in its randomness. "Pretty good confidence" is pretty good, but not perfect. Don't mention this to a quantum physicist though. I find that it has a really decent chance of unsettling their worldview because a lot of them have a difficult time understanding the difference between "capability of generating information" (non-repetitive states) and "information" (non-repetitive data gathered through measurement of an ensemble of systems in those states). I brought this up recently on a website somewhere, and I got confused but polite responses.

I have no idea why the random number generator would generate the binary point representation of pi specifically, but I see your point there. If the bits in pi are random, then of course that's a good of source as any. I just hope that you understand that the test that "I" propose is not my test. It's Shannon's test. He talks about an infinite number of infinite strings (so as to get a good idea of the different "seeds" of the generator), and my only simplification is the assumption that an infinite string would at some point contain all of the sequences found in the other infinite strings, so all "seeds" would eventually get tested anyway. Shannon's test effectively discerns between statistical coincidence and pattern.

I recently picked up an old book in Kindle edition called "Introduction to Information Theory" by John Pierce (inventor of transistor, I think). It was $4! Such a sweet deal.

P.S. I came off seeming kind of harsh and "anti-spiritual" in the last message re: "does the moon exist when you're not observing it". I am not anti-spiritual or anti-religious. I simply find it incredible when someone takes the "observer effect" from science and distorts it to mean that it has a special meaning when it comes to conscious observers. In reality, the entanglement and state collapse related to observation does not require that the photons come from/go into your eyes. It works just as well if the photons come from/go into the back of your head, or from/into a rock, the Sun, OR THE MOON ITSELF, etc. This realization is not anti-spiritual; it's just anti-bullshit. I've seen so-called "spiritual scientists" write that "this is all a matter of opinion, and anyone who denies the possibility is a close-minded savage beast who bathes in the evil dogma". LOL, at the very least, they could try to cover this distortion of theirs by running with the First Nations-friendly idea that all matter is effectively conscious (or has a spirit, anyway), but they wouldn't ever do that because it doesn't elevate humans to any kind of special plane of existence, and that would effectively spoil the happymagic of their pathetic little circle jerk.

#25taby

Posted 18 October 2012 - 11:59 AM

Perhaps I'm missing the point. Isn't the alternative to *local* hidden variables super-determinism?

And yeah, you're right... there is no way to test a finite string to gain a perfect confidence in its randomness. "Pretty good confidence" is pretty good, but not perfect. Don't mention this to a quantum physicist though. I find that it has a really decent chance of unsettling their worldview because a lot of them have a difficult time understanding the difference between "capability of generating information" (non-repetitive states) and "information" (non-repetitive data gathered through measurement of an ensemble of systems in those states). I brought this up recently on a website somewhere, and I got confused but polite responses.

I have no idea why the random number generator would generate the binary point representation of pi specifically, but I see your point there. If the bits in pi are random, then of course that's a good of source as any. I just hope that you understand that the test that "I" propose is not my test. It's Shannon's test. He talks about an infinite number of infinite strings (so as to get a good idea of the different "seeds" of the generator), and my only simplification is the assumption that an infinite string would at some point contain all of the sequences found in the other infinite strings, so all "seeds" would eventually get tested anyway. Shannon's test effectively discerns between statistical coincidence and pattern.

I recently picked up an old book in Kindle edition called "Introduction to Information Theory" by John Pierce (inventor of transistor, I think). It was $4! Such a sweet deal.

P.S. I came off seeming kind of harsh and "anti-spiritual" in the last message re: "does the moon exist when you're not observing it". I am not anti-spiritual or anti-religious. I simply find it incredible when someone takes the "observer effect" from science and distorts it to mean that it has a special meaning when it comes to conscious observers. In reality, the entanglement and state collapse related to observation does not require that the photons come from/go into your eyes. It works just as well if the photons come from/go into the back of your head, or from/into a rock, the Sun, OR THE MOON ITSELF, etc. This realization is not anti-spiritual; it's just anti-bullshit. I've seen so-called "spiritual scientists" write that "this is all a matter of opinion, and anyone who denies the possibility is a close-minded savage beast who bathes in the evil dogma". LOL, at the very least, they could try to cover this distortion of theirs by running with the First Nations-friendly idea that all matter is effectively conscious (or has a spirit, anyway), but they wouldn't ever do that because it doesn't elevate humans to any kind of special plane of existence, and that would effectively spoil the magic of their little circle jerk.

#24taby

Posted 18 October 2012 - 11:59 AM

Perhaps I'm missing the point. Isn't the alternative to *local* hidden variables super-determinism?

And yeah, you're right... there is no way to test a finite string to gain a perfect confidence in its randomness. "Pretty good confidence" is pretty good, but not perfect. Don't mention this to a quantum physicist though. I find that it has a really decent chance of unsettling their worldview because a lot of them have a difficult time understanding the difference between "capability of generating information" (non-repetitive states) and "information" (non-repetitive data gathered through measurement of an ensemble of systems in those states). I brought this up recently on a website somewhere, and I got confused but polite responses.

I have no idea why the random number generator would generate the binary point representation of pi specifically, but I see your point there. If the bits in pi are random, then of course that's a good of source as any. I just hope that you understand that the test that "I" propose is not my test. It's Shannon's test. He talks about an infinite number of infinite strings (so as to get a good idea of the different "seeds" of the generator), and my only simplification is the assumption that an infinite string would at some point contain all of the sequences found in the other infinite strings, so all "seeds" would eventually get tested anyway. Shannon's test effectively discerns between statistical coincidence and pattern.

I recently picked up an old book in Kindle edition called "Introduction to Information Theory" by John Pierce (inventor of transistor, I think). It was $4! Such a sweet deal.

P.S. I came off seeming kind of harsh and "anti-spiritual" in the last message re: "does the moon exist when you're not observing it". I am not anti-spiritual or anti-religious. I simply find it incredible when someone takes the "observer effect" from science and distorts it to mean that it has a special meaning when it comes to conscious observers. In reality, the entanglement and state collapse related to observation does not require that the photons come from/go into your eyes. It works just as well if the photons come from/go into the back of your head, or from/into a rock, the Sun, OR THE MOON ITSELF, etc. This realization is not anti-spiritual; it's just anti-bullshit. I've seen so-called "spiritual scientists" write that "this is all a matter of opinion, and anyone who denies the possibility is a close-minded savage beast who bathes in the evil dogma". LOL, at the very least, they could try to cover this distortion of theirs by running with the First Nations-friendly idea that all matter is effectively conscious (or has a spirit, anyway), but they wouldn't ever do that because it doesn't elevate humans to any kind of special plane of existence, and that would effectively kill their ego.

#23taby

Posted 18 October 2012 - 11:58 AM

Perhaps I'm missing the point. Isn't the alternative to *local* hidden variables super-determinism?

And yeah, you're right... there is no way to test a finite string to gain a perfect confidence in its randomness. "Pretty good confidence" is pretty good, but not perfect. Don't mention this to a quantum physicist though. I find that it has a really decent chance of unsettling their worldview because a lot of them have a difficult time understanding the difference between "capability of generating information" (non-repetitive states) and "information" (non-repetitive data gathered through measurement of an ensemble of systems in those states). I brought this up recently on a website somewhere, and I got confused but polite responses.

I have no idea why the random number generator would generate the binary point representation of pi specifically, but I see your point there. If the bits in pi are random, then of course that's a good of source as any. I just hope that you understand that the test that "I" propose is not my test. It's Shannon's test. He talks about an infinite number of infinite strings (so as to get a good idea of the different "seeds" of the generator), and my only simplification is the assumption that an infinite string would at some point contain all of the sequences found in the other infinite strings, so all "seeds" would eventually get tested anyway. Shannon's test effectively discerns between statistical coincidence and pattern.

I recently picked up an old book in Kindle edition called "Introduction to Information Theory" by John Pierce (inventor of transistor, I think). It was $4! Such a sweet deal.

P.S. I came off seeming kind of harsh and "anti-spiritual" in the last message re: "does the moon exist when you're not observing it". I am not anti-spiritual or anti-religious. I simply find it incredible when someone takes the "observer effect" from science and distorts it to mean that it has a special meaning when it comes to conscious observers. In reality, the entanglement and state collapse related to observation does not require that the photons come from/go into your eyes. It works just as well if the photons come from/go into the back of your head, or from/into a rock, the Sun, OR THE MOON ITSELF, etc. This realization is not anti-spiritual; it's just anti-bullshit. I've seen so-called "spiritual scientists" write that "this is all a matter of opinion, and anyone who denies the possibility is a close-minded savage beast who bathes in the evil dogma". LOL, at the very least, they could try to cover this distortion of theirs by running with the First Nations-friendly idea that all matter is effectively conscious (or has a spirit, anyway), but they wouldn't ever do that because it doesn't elevate humans to any kind of special plane of existence.

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