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#ActualSatharis

Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:16 PM

But here we have an original poster who doesn't want to make a WoW killer, clone EVE Online, or make the next RuneScape.  Here we have someone who wants to make a simpler 2d game.  That only wants to support a maximum of 5,000 players.  That isn't interested in being a global success, but just wants a game people in his own country might enjoy.  A person who apparently at least took the time to create some sort of design document, and appears to be trying to do their due diligence before recruiting a team.

I'd be lying if I said I hadn't seen that exact type of person before and they still had -no- idea what they were getting themselves into. Not everyone is trying to just "kill dreams" by pointing out something is extremely hard to do and the people that do it may be a little insane in the membrane.
   

Is this still difficult?  You bet it is -- it's a difficult undertaking that would entail a lengthy learning and development process, and probably a couple of smaller (perhaps failed) games along the way.

I totally agree, if he wants to go that route. His post implied that he was ready to go directly at his dream and was doing the "don't try and stop me, I'll do it no matter what any of you say!" thing.

Some of us are trying to be realistic, perhaps some are just being pessimistic. It's definitely not an impossible goal, but I'm just not sure the OP really understands what he is talking about doing.  

Is it impossible.  No, it's not.  Single developers and small teams have succeeded at more difficult projects than this one.

To be fair those people are few and number and most of the time they ended up trained programmers from it or were college students in the first place. I'm all for being positive but it's better not to dillude people into thinking that it's like one of those kid moments where you can be an astronaut if you just try your hardest. A lot of things have to happen before that.

Here we have a user who specifically noted that this would be a "super hard" project and wants to do "whatever it takes" to succeed.  Someone who specifically asked not to be warned about the difficulty, claiming to already know; it's pretty obvious from the mention of this that this is someone who has done some basic research and seen similar warnings before, and although probably underestimates the difficulty has chosen to continue anyway.

Honestly that's the part that I -consistantly- see. People read these kinds of threads and then they think "I'm different, I must be different." That advice is usually given for a reason.
 

Obviously these successes are the exception rather than the rule, but for the rest of us schmucks attempted and failing at these types of project is one of the absolute best learning experiences available.  When you tell the original poster that (s)he is underestimating the difficulty of this project what experience are you basing that on?  In many cases it's based on your own prior attempts at an overly ambitious project in which you would have learned a great many lessons and gained invaluable experience; I understand the drive to try to prevent others from wasting their time, but why rob a determined beginner of that incredibly valuable learning experience?

Mainly because the primary things that people take away from those experiences are that they got themselves into something that was too big for them, it seats in them firmly that they know how high that mountaintop is and that they have no interest in even trying to reach it again. Not until they had a ton of experience and a good team of people maybe.
 

Warning someone about the difficulty is fine -- perhaps even a good idea if they seem unaware of what they're getting into.  But when someone claims to understand the difficulty -- even if they're probably underestimating it -- why continue to push the point?  Sure, give the advice if you feel it's necessary, but how about some actual detailed ideas for how to proceed with the project as well?  Maybe the original poster is one of those rare driven people who will just keep at it until the project succeeds, or maybe they'll fail and learn all those lessons more experienced developers harp on about.  Either way, post after post telling them their project is "too difficult" or "impossible" just isn't helpful.
 
</rant>

I would agree in part, people are probably being a bit over pessimistic here and thats why in my post at least I used examples and background for my thoughts. If after all our dissuading he still feels he can do this. Well, more power to him. If he fails it'l mainly be him that will take away from it, so its not the end of the world.

But on the other hand I just have to outline the fact that it's completely -normal- for people to make threads like this and say the exact same thing "I know how hard it is." To me that just says they -don't- know how hard it is, it's not really something you can convey. The only thing you can take away from it is either: "I tried it and learned" or "someone told me the horrors and I believed them."

I at least am not trying to kick him out the door, just more point out that his dream may not even make him happy to pursue, he should be prepared for the absurd amount of work it takes. But if he wants to go for it, hell, go for it. Ask more questions here, I'm sure quite a few people are ready to answer them!

*ON TOPIC*
Your biggest goal really, at least initially is to look at the kind of game you're making. Having a design doc is definitely a good start, you'll want to look at your needs and figure out what kind of people you need on your team. How long it might take(it may be better to ask a programmer their opinion of that or show us your design doc.) Things like that.

Picking tools is more for when you know what your needs will be, which is challenging at best when you have little-no experience.


#2Satharis

Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:16 PM

But here we have an original poster who doesn't want to make a WoW killer, clone EVE Online, or make the next RuneScape.  Here we have someone who wants to make a simpler 2d game.  That only wants to support a maximum of 5,000 players.  That isn't interested in being a global success, but just wants a game people in his own country might enjoy.  A person who apparently at least took the time to create some sort of design document, and appears to be trying to do their due diligence before recruiting a team.

I'd be lying if I said I hadn't seen that exact type of person before and they still had -no- idea what they were getting themselves into. Not everyone is trying to just "kill dreams" by pointing out something is extremely hard to do and the people that do it may be a little insane in the membrane.
   

Is this still difficult?  You bet it is -- it's a difficult undertaking that would entail a lengthy learning and development process, and probably a couple of smaller (perhaps failed) games along the way.

I totally agree, if he wants to go that route. His post implied that he was ready to go directly at his dream and was doing the "don't try and stop me, I'll do it no matter what any of you say!" thing.

Some of us are trying to be realistic, perhaps some are just being pessimistic. It's definitely not an impossible goal, but I'm just not sure the OP really understands what he is talking about doing.  

Is it impossible.  No, it's not.  Single developers and small teams have succeeded at more difficult projects than this one.

To be fair those people are few and number and most of the time they ended up trained programmers from it or were college students in the first place. I'm all for being positive but it's better not to dillude people into thinking that it's like one of those kid moments where you can be an astronaut if you just try your hardest. A lot of things have to happen before that.

Here we have a user who specifically noted that this would be a "super hard" project and wants to do "whatever it takes" to succeed.  Someone who specifically asked not to be warned about the difficulty, claiming to already know; it's pretty obvious from the mention of this that this is someone who has done some basic research and seen similar warnings before, and although probably underestimates the difficulty has chosen to continue anyway.

Honestly that's the part that I -consistantly- see. People read these kinds of threads and then they think "I'm different, I must be different." That advice is usually given for a reason.
 

Obviously these successes are the exception rather than the rule, but for the rest of us schmucks attempted and failing at these types of project is one of the absolute best learning experiences available.  When you tell the original poster that (s)he is underestimating the difficulty of this project what experience are you basing that on?  In many cases it's based on your own prior attempts at an overly ambitious project in which you would have learned a great many lessons and gained invaluable experience; I understand the drive to try to prevent others from wasting their time, but why rob a determined beginner of that incredibly valuable learning experience?

Mainly because the primary things that people take away from those experiences are that they got themselves into something that was too big for them, it seats in them firmly that they know how high that mountaintop is and that they have no interest in even trying to reach it again. Not until they had a ton of experience and a good team of people maybe.
 

Warning someone about the difficulty is fine -- perhaps even a good idea if they seem unaware of what they're getting into.  But when someone claims to understand the difficulty -- even if they're probably underestimating it -- why continue to push the point?  Sure, give the advice if you feel it's necessary, but how about some actual detailed ideas for how to proceed with the project as well?  Maybe the original poster is one of those rare driven people who will just keep at it until the project succeeds, or maybe they'll fail and learn all those lessons more experienced developers harp on about.  Either way, post after post telling them their project is "too difficult" or "impossible" just isn't helpful.
 
</rant>

I would agree in part, people are probably being a bit over pessimistic here and thats why in my post at least I used examples and background for my thoughts. If after all our dissuading he still feels he can do this. Well, more power to him. If he fails it'l mainly be him that will take away from it, so its not the end of the world.

But on the other hand I just have to outline the fact that it's completely -normal- for people to make threads like this and say the exact same thing "I know how hard it is." To me that just says they -don't- know how hard it is, it's not really something you can convey. The only thing you can take away from it is either: "I tried it and learned" or "someone told me the horrors and I believed them."

I at least am not trying to kick him out the door, just more point out that his dream may not even make him happy to pursue, he should be prepared for the absurd amount of work it takes. But if he wants to go for it, hell, go for it. Ask more questions here, I'm sure quite a few people are ready to answer them!

*ON TOPIC*
Your biggest goal really, at least initially is to look at the kind of game you're making. Having a design doc is definitely a good start, you'll want to look at your needs and figure out what kind of people you need on your team. How long it might take(it may be better to ask a programmer their opinion of that or show us your design doc.) Things like that.

Picking tools is more for when you know what your needs will be, which is challenging at best when you have little-no experience.

#1Satharis

Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:13 PM

But here we have an original poster who doesn't want to make a WoW killer, clone EVE Online, or make the next RuneScape.  Here we have someone who wants to make a simpler 2d game.  That only wants to support a maximum of 5,000 players.  That isn't interested in being a global success, but just wants a game people in his own country might enjoy.  A person who apparently at least took the time to create some sort of design document, and appears to be trying to do their due diligence before recruiting a team.

I'd be lying if I said I hadn't seen that exact type of person before and they still had -no- idea what they were getting themselves into. Not everyone is trying to just "kill dreams" by pointing out something is extremely hard to do and the people that do it may be a little insane in the membrane.
   

Is this still difficult?  You bet it is -- it's a difficult undertaking that would entail a lengthy learning and development process, and probably a couple of smaller (perhaps failed) games along the way.

I totally agree, if he wants to go that route. His post implied that he was ready to go directly at his dream and was doing the "don't try and stop me, I'll do it no matter what any of you say!" thing.

Some of us are trying to be realistic, perhaps some are just being pessimistic. It's definitely not an impossible goal, but I'm just not sure the OP really understands what he is talking about doing.  

Is it impossible.  No, it's not.  Single developers and small teams have succeeded at more difficult projects than this one.

To be fair those people are few and number and most of the time they ended up trained programmers from it or were college students in the first place. I'm all for being positive but it's better not to dillude people into thinking that it's like one of those kid moments where you can be an astronaut if you just try your hardest. A lot of things have to happen before that.

Here we have a user who specifically noted that this would be a "super hard" project and wants to do "whatever it takes" to succeed.  Someone who specifically asked not to be warned about the difficulty, claiming to already know; it's pretty obvious from the mention of this that this is someone who has done some basic research and seen similar warnings before, and although probably underestimates the difficulty has chosen to continue anyway.

Honestly that's the part that I -consistantly- see. People read these kinds of threads and then they think "I'm different, I must be different." That advice is usually given for a reason.
 

Obviously these successes are the exception rather than the rule, but for the rest of us schmucks attempted and failing at these types of project is one of the absolute best learning experiences available.  When you tell the original poster that (s)he is underestimating the difficulty of this project what experience are you basing that on?  In many cases it's based on your own prior attempts at an overly ambitious project in which you would have learned a great many lessons and gained invaluable experience; I understand the drive to try to prevent others from wasting their time, but why rob a determined beginner of that incredibly valuable learning experience?

Mainly because the primary things that people take away from those experiences are that they got themselves into something that was too big for them, it seats in them firmly that they know how high that mountaintop is and that they have no interest in even trying to reach it again. Not until they had a ton of experience and a good team of people maybe.
 

Warning someone about the difficulty is fine -- perhaps even a good idea if they seem unaware of what they're getting into.  But when someone claims to understand the difficulty -- even if they're probably underestimating it -- why continue to push the point?  Sure, give the advice if you feel it's necessary, but how about some actual detailed ideas for how to proceed with the project as well?  Maybe the original poster is one of those rare driven people who will just keep at it until the project succeeds, or maybe they'll fail and learn all those lessons more experienced developers harp on about.  Either way, post after post telling them their project is "too difficult" or "impossible" just isn't helpful.
 
</rant>

I would agree in part, people are probably being a bit over pessimistic here and thats why in my post at least I used examples and background for my thoughts. If after all our dissuading he still feels he can do this. Well, more power to him. If he fails it'l mainly be him that will take away from it, so its not the end of the world.

But on the other hand I just have to outline the fact that it's completely -normal- for people to make threads like this and say the exact same thing "I know how hard it is." To me that just says they -don't- know how hard it is, it's not really something you can convey. The only thing you can take away from it is either: "I tried it and learned" or "someone told me the horrors and I believed them."

I at least am not trying to kick him out the door, just more point out that his dream may not even make him happy to pursue, he should be prepared for the absurd amount of work it takes. But if he wants to go for it, hell, go for it. Ask more questions here, I'm sure quite a few people are ready to answer them!

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