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Appropriate topics


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#1 ghowland   Members   -  Reputation: 134

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Posted 02 April 2000 - 12:11 PM

There are some topics, while they are realted to some forms of game development, that are not appropriate in this forum. Adult content (as in the above R rated kind), is not the focus of this site, and is one of the topics we aren''t promoting in any way, so take those discussions elsewhere. For the R rated, simply mature games, I agree that there is a huge lack of mature emotional content in games. Part of this is that we dont have actors to emote as easily as film does, but books do this with no actors, which is where we should probably be basing our work on. However, the current publishing model doesnt really subscribe to this as a ''sellable'' product yet. The Sims are probably the closest to that, and really they are more of the Soap Opera type of entertainment when played that way, or else very one dimensional (not to their discredit, that wasnt their goal). -Geoff

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#2 Captain Goatse   Banned   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 03:20 AM

Come on... If someone says porn which is relatively happy and soft word you guys are just like "Whoo? He said it, didn''t he? Now I must delete that topic." You guys are really hypocritical and conservative... Well I think that''s the mood in USA, but I don''t care where you come from, but I think you just violated my liberty to express myself! Well, come on, you didn''t offence anyone, for now, but what is wrong saying word porn? It belongs to game indrusty, film indrusty, real life and many other places... I''ve got feeling that you are just evading the truth that porn is one of best selling things in the world... I also think that I belongs to this forum like in anywhere else. It''s simply the truth that there is some room for porn games, hear it, I said porn? Wanna delete this topic? Huh? Where we should talk about sex? Nowhere? That''s the way in USA where teenage pregnancy rates are one of the highest in whole world??

So if it''s the public line of GDN then I''ll understand it, somehow, but I have seen a lot of rougher topics than mine was? So why did you delete it? I want use words porn, sex, drugs, fuck, dick, sex, alchohol, whereever I want as long as it''s not offending anyone... Let''s say, erotic games? They will come when they realize that there is hole for them... They had inveted machine for cybersex? Why couldn''t you use it for games? You get the forcefeedback feeling, these force feedbacks are just like made for women, but they should shape it little bit? What do you think? Joystick and "joy stick" in the same packet?

It is just stupid coling eyes deleting topics which are little bit nastier or are going to affects someones opinions like that christianity topic, I don''t know if it''s deleted...

By the way. If GDN deletes your topics arbitrary, just sue them, In most of countries they are violating liberty of speech in that case. I have seen a lot of smaller cases where stupid people had sued company X...

Time comes, time goes and I only am.

#3 Dan Smith   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 04:20 AM

As Geoff said, this message board system isn''t really the place for that. About the suing, thats not exactly possible. This is there site, they can have whatever rules they want. They have the right to delete anything they want, without question or explanation of any kind.

Talking about porn, sex, or any other type of subject like that on these boards generally isn''t a good idea. Some people are offended by that. Plus, a great number of people viewing these boards are people under 18, and if they get caught viewing anything to do with porn, they''ll most likely be kicked off the net for awhile.

-Dan


#4 _dot_   Members   -  Reputation: 160

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 04:37 AM

GdNet Forum is a MODERATED forum, and it is for the benefits of every developer. Ever been to some forums that are not moderated the least bit? They got way out of topic, with spams, flames, and eventually no one even bothered to visit it.

Look around the forums. How many of them involves the elements you are fighting for, and you will know just how many are on your side. If you do not like the workings of GdNet forum, you should just stop visiting and using it, instead of rambling about your rights and freedom of speech.


#5 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 05:43 AM

Mr. Howland says that he deleted the thread about porn games because Gamedev does not ''promote'' porn in any way. Does it mean that Gamedev ''promotes'' running around with shotguns and shooting people''s heads off when they do not delete FPS threads?

Henry

#6 Captain Goatse   Banned   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 06:48 AM

That was good one Anom. Poster. And where did I say that I will spam, flood, flame and go from off topic????? I just asked about porn games which wasn''t much? It belongs to game desing forum, it''s genre as RPG or FPS? It was as good topic as any "Is there any room for yet another crappy rpg?" or "Tell me something new about over used genre of FPS?" I just can''t see how someone can connect porn game and spam, flame and flood together? Well, it might be the word porn, but then you should read the latter part of it...

It''s good thing that this is moderated so that every make cash easy guys can''t post those topics here. Moderators aren''t here for deleting all kinds of (somewhat)intelligent discussions and stop people to change their ideas and opinions...

Time comes, time goes and I only am.

#7 Painless   Members   -  Reputation: 126

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 07:53 AM

The porn game thread''s been deleted? IMHO, that''s simply idiotic. See, most of the actual game developers/artists/etc here are NOT 13-year-olds whose parents freak out when they see the word porn, they''re mature people who can discuss mature topics in a mature way (note: that doesn''t mean "who can cuss and be 1337"). The porn game thread was actually somewhat interesting, and might have gotten somewhere.

#8 Paladin   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 08:46 AM

I believe that deleting the discussion about porn game wasn''t good way to deal with it, AT ALL. I do respect ghowlands viewpoint, but I agree with last message, people over here are adult enough to understand what they are talking about ! Maybe talking about porn game is little weird (hey, interesting , but this makes me really feel that if I want to create C&C-clone, moderators just come to mess up and scream : "No more C&C-clones, that genre is so damn stupid because there are so many C&C-clones allready".

When it comes to real art, US and Europe REALLY (fact) do divide in opinion about painting nude figure. Most of the US people start getting strongly upset because of ... "SHE''S NUDE ! ARE YOU DAMN PERVERT ?", while NO-ONE at Europe starts critiquing nude-picture painting as porn.

How about drugs ? This question is really for moderators: If I want to create game where player has to be a drug dealer, and he has to create own drugs in labs, and I want the game to be really specific and realistic, are you going to delete my question about drugs just because its "incorrect" and "little green people might get weird ideas because I''m trying to bring formulas of creating drugs for public" ? Or maybe player isn''t even drug dealer, maybe he should be a cop, but the question remains same !

I would like to see little more wider perspective when deleting message that PEOPLE in the forums saw interesting, while it didn''t even bother other people (atleast I didn''t see any angry messages), and while it still was tasty ! It would be atleast nice to move thread for other board, and not just deleting it.

Well... still... I see the point of deleting: It was about porn on public place ! Some people just seem not to be able to handle such a topic

#9 genovov   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 09:56 AM

Why are games with gameplay and goals centered on violence and stealing acceptable topics (RPG''s and FPS come to mind), and a discussion about the viability of a game with virtual sex as a goal unacceptable? Personally, I think that''s pretty narrow and dumb.

Every entertainment medium (books, video, internet ect), has been used for porn. It arguable that a number of the technical advances on the net have been driven, in part, by the porn industry (streaming video).

If the moderators of this wonderful discussion area think that a topic may not be suitable for younger users of the site, then perhaps they should attach a icon to the thread indicating such.

At least the porn game thread had to do with game programming, as opposed to a lot of the other stuff that''s been poping up around here...

- genovov

#10 ghowland   Members   -  Reputation: 134

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 10:16 AM

Its not just about younger audiences, this isnt the type of discussion I want on MY board. Check who is moderating this forum. You want to talk about this, go to usenet or somewhere else. You dont like it? Go somewhere else.

You want to sue me, bring it on. Youll be laughed out of court, since this is a private board, and Im sure youre full of crap about that anyway (lets throw around lawsuits to scare people). Especially since you arent even in the US and it would cost you a ton more to do any such thing.

Bottom line, if we dont allow a topic to be discussed for WHATEVER reason, thats the way it is here. We dont NEED to explain it because its our policies, our boards, and our servers. If you dont like that, you dont have to talk about it here.

What have you really had taken away from your "liberty" to discuss here anyway? From the posts Ive seen deleted most recently its been pornography discussions, racist comments and discussions, and religious discussions that were going badly or were just OTT.

So we've cut them because this is not the theme of the board, nor do we want it as a spawning ground for those discussions as WE feel they are off topic. Again, if you dont like this, dont post here. I dont see these as big stopping points for all the other things we do provide.

Archon, if you want to just "challenge authority" or something idiotic like that, go for it and see how fast your account gets deleted. We dont have to put up with you making posts like that after we tell you its not appropriate on our site.

Reasons for not allowing those kinds of discussions:

- Some people come here from work (whethers on their lunch breaks or not), if their servers/bosses pick up anything about pornography on their computers, theyre fired
- Some people have parents who will ban them from using the computers if they visit sites similarly
- Some people just dont like those topics and shouldnt have to deal with them when visiting a site that is NOT about them. If you look at the internet as a whole there is a clear separation between places that deal with this topic, and places that dont.
- Then there is my personal feelings on them, which is I dont want them on my sites or on a forum Im moderating, and this is my forum. I encourage discussin on GAME DESIGN, and not on topics like this. If you cant handle that, find someplace else to talk.

Final analogy (for those who dont want to get it). You come in to my home, or the home or several people in this case, and you start talking about things we dont want to hear. We ask you not to. Instead of respecting our wishes, in our home, you decide to rant and rave about your rights and how you will say whatever you want to and sue us if you ask you to stop or leave. Get it?

-Geoff


Edited by - ghowland on 4/3/00 4:43:33 PM

Edited by - ghowland on 4/3/00 4:44:25 PM

#11 Paladin   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 10:42 AM

I see your point, and I agree that your board is under your control & wish.

#12 Paladin   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 10:44 AM

And just adding that my last comment "...Some people just cant handle it" DID NOT MEAN MODERATORS, but users this on this board, and it points out same things that you Geoff were telling too ! Sorry if I made my comment unclear
But Geoff, still I would like to hear your opinion about this Drug example that I was giving... I mean, if there are other politically incorrect subjects, what are you going to do about those ? Not taking offence...

Edited by - Paladin on 4/3/00 4:47:28 PM

#13 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 10:51 AM

Mr. Howland,

I would appreciate it if you would just answer a hypothetical question that would help clarify where you draw the line for appropriate topics. Assume for a second that this is a ''movie-design'' forum and 3 designers start threads wanting to discuss their new movies: Boogie Nights, Trainspotting and Basic Instinct. Would you remove those threads?

I am not trying to challenge your authority or anything but rather trying to figure out the ''rules'' of this community in an area where they are dim at best. You say that you delete these threads because this forum is about Game Design. That would imply that you mean that the only ''real games'' are the ones that Hasbro would make (aimed at kids)?

About your other arguments, well, a lot of people must be getting fired for reading newspapers since I am sure even American newspapers discuss porn occasionally... but like I said, I do not care about that since I am only interested in finding out your views on controversial elements of GAME DESIGN and its future on GDN.

Henry

#14 Gromit   Members   -  Reputation: 144

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 10:54 AM

- When was the last time that an individual was sued for violating anothers freedom of speech? Thats just pathetic.

I''m not sure if I violated your policy on banning adult content. I posted a message in the ''Help Wanted'' forum of this site asking for developers of adult games to contact me. Was this wrong?

If you feel this way then, so be it. But in defence of my actions I must say this...

- I was not discusing adult topics.
- I was not granting access to adult content.
- I was not promoting adult sites.
- I used no profanity.
- I *am* offering real money.

Some people will be interested in making some quick bucks shooting out some adult type games for out web sites. some other people are interesting in playing these adult type games. So there is a market.

This is a legit business which happens to cater to adults.

I have not checked to see if my post was removed or not, as I am just checking right now if I violated any rules.

#15 ghowland   Members   -  Reputation: 134

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 10:57 AM

In a situation like a "you play a bad guy" game, itd be determined on the situation. If someone is talking about dealing drugs in a game, then there are a few considerations.

If its purely talking about dealing drugs to people in the realistic sense, then itd be out of bounds and stopped or deleleted. Some threads ARE simply stopped because they wont get anyone fired just for being there, and arent going to create more huge thread backlashes (like racism posts and religious posts). Just stopping a thread also leaves it as a mark for things you cant talk about. If its OTT in a way that should be removed (for the above reasons), then we should post about why its been removed, but honestly it just creates MORE work for us, and we already have a lot of work.

On the otherhand if someone is making a social commentary game about drugs, then that may be allowed. (Ie. not promoting drugs, but having a whole DEA/drug/gang warfare thing and showing its fucked up in some way).

These are all fairly arbitrary lines in the sand though. The individual moderator or staff member would deal with them as they see fit.

Re violence in games. I dont look to glorify violence in games, but most games have some form of "violence" in them, like shooting things. However, I dont think that this usually glorifies violence, as its just a simple way to interact with challenges. Crude, sure. But game controls are fairly basic, and pushing/shoving/shooting are basic challenges in life. The fact that its a fantasy situation dispells most of it, like 10 ton anvils falling on heads in cartoons.

This is a different discussion though, but not one Im opposed to having, I just dont want it to get caught up with the porn discussion, as they are different things.

-Geoff




#16 ghowland   Members   -  Reputation: 134

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 11:06 AM

quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
I would appreciate it if you would just answer a hypothetical question that would help clarify where you draw the line for appropriate topics. Assume for a second that this is a ''movie-design'' forum and 3 designers start threads wanting to discuss their new movies: Boogie Nights, Trainspotting and Basic Instinct. Would you remove those threads?


I would probably delete the Boogie Nights thread depending on where it went, Trainspotting and Basic Instinct were not so blatant or centered. BI could go OTT, but so could anything. If you were focusing on a thriller with mature emotions/motivations and not the most explicit scenes of that movie, then I dont see i violating anything.

As for Trainspotting, the whole thing was a commentary on how drug use was fucked up. Thats hardly something to censor.

quote:
I am not trying to challenge your authority or anything but rather trying to figure out the ''rules'' of this community in an area where they are dim at best. You say that you delete these threads because this forum is about Game Design. That would imply that you mean that the only ''real games'' are the ones that Hasbro would make (aimed at kids)?


No. I dont know if youre trying to be obtuse, but thats way overboard. I cant go into filling in every issue where the line is, I dont have the time or patience for it. Most people know when they are stepping out of normal conversation boundaries though, dont they?

quote:
About your other arguments, well, a lot of people must be getting fired for reading newspapers since I am sure even American newspapers discuss porn occasionally... but like I said, I do not care about that since I am only interested in finding out your views on controversial elements of GAME DESIGN and its future on GDN.


Again, it appears you are trying to be obtuse. I dont know if you understand how some companies operate, but some of them filter web browsing through their proxies, and coming up with a bunch of porn related words on a single page could flag the person browsing. They could end up losing their job. Should we risk that just for the sake of youre "liberty to do whatever you want"? I dont think so.

Sounds a little more like you are trying to needle the situation to me.

-Geoff


#17 ghowland   Members   -  Reputation: 134

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 11:09 AM

quote:
Original post by Gromit

- When was the last time that an individual was sued for violating anothers freedom of speech? Thats just pathetic.


That was just pure BS from someone who would rather try to bully his way into getting what he wants IMO.

quote:
I'm not sure if I violated your policy on banning adult content. I posted a message in the 'Help Wanted' forum of this site asking for developers of adult games to contact me. Was this wrong?


I dont moderate that forum, so it depends how you did it. If it was very discreet, probably not. If it becomes an overwhelming topic there, then it would turn into a problem. You werent asking to discuss it, and while Id rather not have it there, I dont see it getting anyone fired, depending on how you worded it.

-Geoff

Edited by - ghowland on 4/3/00 5:15:55 PM

#18 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 12:01 PM

Just wanted to hear if you would stop a thread about a movie nominated for 3 Oscars if you were running a movie-design board.

You accuse me of being obtuse, well, we both know that your filtering-getting-fired argument is BS and a empty justficiation. This discussion would not trigger such a filter more than some of the articles in newspapers and magazines like Wired. Besides, just look at the language in some of the other threads on the GDN forums.

I am left with an impression that you have some personal issue with sex and porn in games but that you are more open minded about other sensitive subjects, drugs and violence (other subjects that might get people fired if the proxy picks it up! hehe). I will respect that and thank you for answering these posts of mine.

Maybe someday games will be looked upon by the public in the same way as we look at movies and books but first I think the gamedevelopers need to convince themself of that this is the right way to look at it.

Henry



#19 Tony Chamblee   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 12:22 PM


Some of you really don't seem to understand...you are asking him where the definite line is, what is censored on these boards and what is not. What goes and what stays is totally his decision, if it's in his best judgement to remove something, then fine. Chances are, 90% of us agree with him on his call. It's just these 10% that give the uproar about it. If it's removed, it's removed. Just leave it at that. (And all he asked was that you post these things in the right forum. Some of the things removed here would most likely be perfectly acceptable in the lounge.)

Really though, what's the use of crying about it?

*Tony Chamblee*

Nucleus Software

Edited by - Tony Chamblee on 4/3/00 6:24:32 PM

#20 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696

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Posted 03 April 2000 - 12:40 PM

Here are a couple of my own thoughts on the matter: although I dont think discussions like that are inherintly bad, I agree with Geoff Howland on the point that they should be kept off this board. The problem isn''t the original topic itself -- it''s generally what it evolves into. Controversial subjects usually only need one idiot to muck everything up and turn an interesting topic into an inconsequencial flame war (see the Christianity post, for example). I dont think the original topic itself was bad, but what it could potentially turn into was not something desirable on this board.

--TheGoop




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