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How to Convince Friend, or Not


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#1 TrigonLoki   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 19 May 2000 - 01:55 PM

Hiya, everybody! Here''s my problem: my friend, the de facto lead designer in our little programming group, has decided that a well laid-out design is unnecessary for an RPG that we''re expecting will take players a good 30 hours to complete! It''s my personal belief that a good design should at least be laid out before starting such an adventerous enterprise. He also is quite addicted to the traditional way of RPG making (see the Stop Goblin Genocide post to see what I mean). He has very few ideas that are actually innovative, and whenever I bring up a new aspect for us to work out, he says, "Why don''t we just copy such and such system from such and such game?" What can I say, other than, "That''s stooopid!"? Trigon I like food.

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#2 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696

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Posted 19 May 2000 - 03:23 PM

Sounds like you need to get a new designer. Either that, or buy the book "Game Architecture and Design" (or something like that). That should beat some sense into him (if he isn''t too lazy to read it!)

Good luck!

--TheGoop

#3 Dæmin   Members   -  Reputation: 128

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Posted 19 May 2000 - 03:48 PM

Erg, most "friends" that are designers are notoriously lazy, so my suggestion is to get someone else to do the design specs, or if not then make some backup ones jsut in case...

Dæmin
(Dominik Grabiec)
sdgrab@eisa.net.au

CyberPunk RPG
http://www.eisa.net.au/~sdgrab/index.html

#4 Kavos   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 19 May 2000 - 03:50 PM

Make him play all the really, really crappy rpgs that your can find, then tell him that this could happen to you.

~Kavos


#5 evaclear   Members   -  Reputation: 162

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Posted 19 May 2000 - 04:12 PM

Take a look at some of the PostMortem''s in the Game Developers Magazine. There is one each issue. Normaly the summation of games which don''t have a detailed design document are plagued with delays, and inconsistancies. The only games that get away with it are games with little or no story lines, like roller coaster tycoon and Unreal Tournament. But not having a design doc for an RPG is an extremly bad idea. How can you convince him? If he''s got his mind made up you probably can''t. He''ll figure out that it can''t be done with in a year of the project start date. Or when he releases an early beta & everyone laughs at him.

#6 TrigonLoki   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 19 May 2000 - 04:25 PM

I personally like Kavos'' solution. What are some really horrible RPG''s I could download for a demonstration? The only RPG''s I own are Fallout 2, Baldur''s Gate, and Final Fantasy VII, so I can''t really scare him with those. I downloaded this one called Silver Island, but its badness wasn''t really the fault of bad design, just Visual Basic.

I''ll probably just make some design docs behind his back, anyway. I''m such a backstabber.

Trigon

I like food.

#7 felonius   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 20 May 2000 - 10:55 AM

backstabbing? Lying?

This does not sound like a healthy enterprise already at this point. Without wanting to pass final judgement on anybody I at least do not know personally I must say that this sounds like a project doomed to failure.

If you cannot find people with any experience, at least try to get somebody willing to use the time to learn how it is done. It is my basic thesis that somebody should try to do things like everybody else at least once, before trying to do it their own "cool" way - I am here talking about game developement methology - not game ideas.

Jacob Marner

#8 TrigonLoki   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 20 May 2000 - 04:58 PM

I''m not too worried about our project being doomed to failure right now. Even if the project does die on the vine, it''s no great loss to humanity. I mean, we''re just a bunch of teenagers.

I''ll talk to him about it, maybe show him all the responses I got showing him what a good idea a nice design document is, then see if he just wants to just be the artist from now on.

And felonius, getting him to do things like everyone else is exactly what I''m trying to show him is the right thing. That didn''t come out the way I wanted to say it, but you know what I mean! (And I was being sarcastic about backstabbing . Really, I was. I mean it.)

This entire post didn''t come out the way I wanted it to. I''ll probably try again later when I''ve sorted my thoughts out.

Trigon


I like food.

#9 Glandalf   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 20 May 2000 - 07:53 PM

If all the desginer wants to do is copy from other games, ask him/her if it is actually a design for a new game, or merely a rewrite of an old game. I always ask myself these before starting any project, no matter how far into it I get, if I start to think its a rewrite go back and add or delete some things. I know gamers who no longer go and buy games because they say that there all rewrites from past games and no longer have any play value. I have recently started to agree with this attitude, after looking for a good game at Best Buy I came out with an old game (System Shock 2, finally going to play though that one). A good game if your looking for a change is The Sims, I''ve never played anything like it before and look at how good its doing. If you watch the signs they all point to originality (is that spelled right?) in a game. Anywho thats my 2 cents

Glandalf

#10 Landfish   Members   -  Reputation: 288

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Posted 21 May 2000 - 04:24 PM

Everybody loves my End Goblin Genocide post (I''m happy!)! =)

For good negative reinforcement let me reccommend Beyond the Beyond. How they got so many cliches on one CD is a phsyics problem.

#11 Hase   Members   -  Reputation: 313

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Posted 21 May 2000 - 10:08 PM

Get a new designer. (or divide the design process up among everyone)

Besides, when working with a small team usually everyone participates in the design process. This basically leads to endless discussions about things that aren´t really important after all, but there is no other way to do it right.

If you neglect design you are going to end up with a bunch of stuff that doesn´t really fit.

And isn´t the design part the most fun of it all? (apart from holding the finished product in your hands)

PS: for a 30 hour game you won´t just need good design but also tons and tons of story.

PPS: Ask around what people want to play. Usually we make games we would enjoy to play? How does your designer feel about that?

#12 Magic Card   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 22 May 2000 - 11:28 AM

quote:
Original post by TheGoop

Sounds like you need to get a new designer. Either that, or buy the book "Game Architecture and Design"


Another good choice is Game Design: Secrets Of The Sages (I read atleast 3 chapters a night and I''m still not done; but I''m not bored. Infact, I now call it my Bible).




Top quality games don''t kick ass as well as these.

http://danavision.homestead.com

Prepare to be blown away!
-------------------------

Magic Card

#13 TrigonLoki   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 22 May 2000 - 04:32 PM

Well, more fun! In his own words, "I get tired of playing all these games with the long, boring stories, like FFVII. Screw the story."

I told him that I''d do the Design Doc and we''d all go over it at the meeting after I finish it. I think this is the most fun part of all!

He''s really just an idea person, not really a true blue game developer.

In case there''s any ambiguity at all, we''re not professionals at all! We''re just teenagers. (I wouldn''t really want to play a game my friend designed ALL by himself. He can''t really follow through very well. Besides, I''d rather play on something I designed! )

So he''s really just an artist now, possibly a programmer if he gets up the will to learn C++.

BTW, visit our brand new website at
http://www.geocities.com/gnomishlord!

Bye all! I''ll probably buy one of the game design books if I get the moola.

Trigon

I like food.




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