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Is this place overrun by newbies?


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#21 s9801758   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 20 May 2000 - 08:36 PM

I''d have to agree with possibility here. It was only after reading about the "Start here" link on the messageboards that I noticed the link on the main page.

Now that I''m used to it I really like the main page (especially the 6 recent posts section), but I remember disliking your page because of putting too much information, links, etc. on it at once.

Maybe you should put a huge START HERE IF YOU ARE A NEWBIE link on the splash screen or something.

Although there is a "start here" link on the main page. I''m sure most of the newbies won''t see it at their first visit.

Jaap Suter

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#22 Khawk   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 1362

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Posted 20 May 2000 - 08:48 PM

It''s difficult to make everything easily accessible, but given all the information that is on the site, the main page is IMO designed well. Maybe if it was in a smaller font it wouldn''t appear to be so much, but no use in killing our eyes. Anyways, I''ve always known the New? Start Here link to be difficult to find. We''ll try to find some other way to make it visible, but in the meantime we''ll just have to help people find it.

Kevin

#23 felonius   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 20 May 2000 - 10:25 PM

To Dire,
If you are actually reading books about programming and game design then there is no problem. So long that you try to figure things by yourself before you ask then no problem. I think it is great if we here can help people get better, but some people just do not want to use the time required to build games.

CmndrM,
You say that if we help all newbies there will be no more. Never! Total newbies will appear at a higher rate the more people that playes games. People seem to think that game programming is very easy. I am a graduate student of COmputer Science and is specializing in game development for my Master''s and people seem surprised every time I tell them this. They though that creating games was simple and not something that needed degrees.

To rivit,
As most flames that occur: please consider that you haven''t misunderstood the arguments that you flame about. If you have used 5 years designing a game then you are serious about it and no problem at all, as I said to Dire above. I think though that you should be ashamed of yourself to flame people. Flaming is childish and not something that makes a forum serious.

Jacob Marner

#24 MadKeithV   Moderators   -  Reputation: 971

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Posted 20 May 2000 - 10:42 PM

I think we''re dealing with a slight naming confusion here:
While the starting post talks about being swamped with "newbies", what he''s really getting at is that we''re being swamped by "wannabies".

Some of the people starting out, right here on gamedev, are intelligent, and seriously consider your answer. You can feel they want to learn.
Some other people just post daft things like "Give me the link to the plugin that they used for the Inventory in Diablo".

The difference is between "I''d like to learn", and "I''d like to have". I don''t mind learning, but I HATE people who think they are going to get everything handed to them. I know I''ve myself resorted to one-line posts along the lines of
"Read the bloody main page you weenis".


#pragma DWIM // Do What I Mean!
~ Mad Keith ~

#25 RandomJon   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 20 May 2000 - 11:00 PM

I think one of the main problems with a newbies forum is that legitimate questions need answering by more experienced people.
How many experienced people will sit in on the newbie forum?
But yeah, I know the whole "I don''t want to learn I want it to be done for me" attitude and it really pisses me off.
Especially when there are so many people taking the time to write tutorials in all and sundry and for these sites (Such as NeHe''s OpenGl tutorial site)

I''d say I''m still a newbie, but I know that you''ll never learn anything if you can''t be bothered to learn it yourself...

Check out my shadows page
and send me some feedback

#26 TechDoctor   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 20 May 2000 - 11:16 PM

I am completely astonished at everybody''s veiw at the newbie issue. The fact of the matter is that game development is starting to really boom and naturally there are going to be a hell lotta newbies and some serious and others not so serious , and we should help those who are serious about this things , i mean books will teach u how to program , but a book wont tell u if ur fit for game design.

#27 The_Minister   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 May 2000 - 05:28 AM

You''re fit for it if you don''t ask stupid questions like, ''Please tell me how to make a game.''

Note that I am not referring to anyone here, for some really good laughs go over to Planterhalflife''s Wavelength. Then proceed to the coding forum.
For the unitiated, Wavelength is a mod development site for Valve''s Half-Life, a really cool game.

Such posts as ''How do I code a mod?'' are more than frequent there.

Just goes to show, now that people have rope, they just start hanging ''emselves with it.

The_Minister
1C3-D3M0N Interactive

#28 Voodoo4   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 May 2000 - 05:34 AM

Hey, two weeks ago i was initiate in the forums.I only knew how to program with BitBlt and that was all.But then i started searcing the web for info,i visited the Microsoft''s DirectX section which has VB tutorials as well and in a week''s time i transfered my game engine from BitBlt to DirectX 7.What i want to say is that it is not bad to be a newbie.It is bad to expect everything to happen like a miracle.
Just search a little.The web is full of info
Voodoo4

#29 SHilbert   Members   -  Reputation: 647

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Posted 21 May 2000 - 06:23 AM

It seems more like this place is overrun by people who complain about newbies.

lntakitopi@aol.com | http://geocities.com/guanajam/

#30 Joviex   Members   -  Reputation: 248

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Posted 21 May 2000 - 07:08 AM

quote:
Original post by TechDoctor

I am completely astonished at everybody''s veiw at the newbie issue. The fact of the matter is that game development is starting to really boom and naturally there are going to be a hell lotta newbies and some serious and others not so serious , and we should help those who are serious about this things , i mean books will teach u how to program , but a book wont tell u if ur fit for game design.



I totally, 100% disagree. The game business has been around for 20 years, and if you were into it, you would know most of the questions wasted on the forums.

I saw a post earlier up the line about "newbies" really translating into "wannbies". I agree that this is probably the most likely situation.

Newbies usually take the time to ask questions about things they have searched around the net for. Wannabies just jump in and say, yo, check out my site will all my kool images (that I ripped from other sites) and my game idea. No idea, no clue, no help.... tempers flare "Why waste my time?"....

I think the problem is basically, " I think I can, so I don''t need all the BS before I start" syndrome. The link at the top for New? Start here only applies to those who think they are not "above" everyone else and can take the time to read and understand the concepts of, hell, just programming, before starting with questions like:

"How do I get my ultra cool warrior loaded in from a 3ds file?" "What do you mean I actually have to code something, there isn''t some code lying around?" "Read an article, I don''t understand them"....

Point being, newbies aren''t really an issue, it is all the hacks who don''t have a clue in the first place.

How do you get around this in an open forum?? You don''t. Although I have seen some ingenious ways of doing it, like having the users, rate the other users. And, yes, there are ways to make sure that it do4esn''t turn into a "slug feast" of people ganging up on others.

You could also rate the topics? That might sway people from actually reading them. Again, just additional stuff to help speed up the time spent looking through six messages of "Why VB is the next killer programming language for games"....

Honestly, I consider myself a newbie after 12 years of programming and 3 in the games industry. I read an article a day, and I still find stuff that I never knew how to do, or different approaches to things. So I have to admit, "newbie" isn''t the nasty word.

I do hope we can all come up with some really good ideas to keep pushing this board along the lines it has been going. It really is an invaluble resource in the game community.

Ok, I blew enough smoke....








#31 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 21 May 2000 - 07:20 AM

I agree with KHawk in that the site is a major meeting point between different people. As a person who programs all day at work I feel to tired to come home and then spend most of my time programming at home. Thus my game programming progresses slowly. It seems to me, as a casual observer, that the people who start the topics generally are students who have more spare time. I have also noticed that the really good answers come from poeple who know their biscuits, people who I''d guess are programmers professionally, therefore some of the answers are too technical for the general newcomer.

I experience this myself when I dare venture away from the lounge into the more specialised areas of programmer that I''m interested in. For example :- I am fasinated by artificial intelligence. If I have a wonder over to the forum for AI then I''m swamped by technical details that I don''t understand and if I was to ask a question to these "experts" I''d be asking a stupid question. I don''t know any better. I have great difficutly finding articles for new comers on AI. They all seem to focus on one area of AI and I don''t know what aspect really interested me. But I wander from the point.

Another problem as I see it, is that nowadays people are more inclined to want to see results. Alot of learning to program is a case of the chicken and the egg. In DirectX you can set the screen up but you cannot see anything or you can set up the palettes but you have no screen. To get to a stage where something is seen is quite a large step. Once this step is made then people will be greeted with learning even more about refresh rates, blitting, lpitch etc. It never seems to stop so people will want quick fire solutions. Instant gratification. Get rich quick. It''s all the same really. We''re in a odd situation where we can remember the games of the past made by Bob in his bedroom. We think we can do it to. We can''t. in a couple of years when todays younger generation get to around 15 they will have only experienced games programmed by teams with big budgets. Then the newbies will stop in this sense, but we will be debating different stuff, and this will no longer matter.

Twig Meister

#32 Voodoo4   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 May 2000 - 08:30 AM

The real problem with people who are just starting programming games is that they dream of a perfect game.
For example someone plays Quake II and he thinks:
"Hmmm...Why shouldn''t i try to make a game like Quake?"
So he focuses on making a game like Quake.
For people who have a programming background this thought would sound very naive.But for this guy who has been all his life a "user" this seems as simple as playing the game.
So when he posts at a forum his first question would be:
"How do i make a game like Quake?".And this of course would sound quite funny(or annoying) to an experienced programmer because of many reasons.
So let me clear up some things:

1)Games like Quake are created from many (and i mean many)professional programmers and artists who work fulltime.
2)So these games require big budgets to pay these professionals,to distribute the game,etc. and this done only by big companies which can afford the money or the risk.
For Quake II only ,2 million dollars were spend and 1 or 2 years before it hits the market.
3)When you start something(not only a game) you should start from the "bottom".You will then have more possibilities to succeed.For example try making a simple windows game,like a solitaire or a minesweeper.Or try some tetris and pac-man which give you real experience.
Bigger projects sometimes never finish.
4)Team up with other people.Cooperation will help you finish a game earlier and will make it better and more optimized.

That''s what i believe someone who just starts programming games should follow.I would never consider myself an experienced programmer so some people more experienced than me may disagree.
Voodoo4


#33 foxtrot   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 May 2000 - 11:09 AM

Yeah I posted a "where to start" message. I spent about three hours trying to figure out what I needed for a compiler. You have to download about 6 different things. And then when I did download them all I couldn''t figure out how to work them. I went to the link on the main page that says "start here" and I couldn''t find an article in there that helped me so I went to the messageboard. Something wrong with that. I belive In a reply to the my own message that I didn''t understand how to use a compiler. I guess you people would rather complain more than anything else.
Some one prove me wrong and tell me where there is an article that will walk you through all the steps from knowing nothing and having nothing to writing your first "Hello World" program!!


And it''s title "Starting C/C++ and Games" not where to start.

Good grief people move on with your life.

#34 Joviex   Members   -  Reputation: 248

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Posted 21 May 2000 - 01:24 PM

quote:
Original post by foxtrot

Yeah I posted a "where to start" message. I spent about three hours trying to figure out what I needed for a compiler. You have to download about 6 different things. And then when I did download them all I couldn''t figure out how to work them. I went to the link on the main page that says "start here" and I couldn''t find an article in


I think you are getting confused here. This site is called Gamedev.net, not LearnYourCompiler.Com.

It is a matter of specificity. I have noticed, from six years of netting and 12 of BBSing, that people gravitate to one solution to solve problems (ergo why Yahoo has everything from greeting cards to stock quotes to email). People are lazy, and don''t want to look for the right solutions, just the quickest solutions.

This is where the problems begin to creep in, because we now have legitimate game questions mixed with "how do I program" questions.

I realize that you have to start someplace, and in my experience, I learned from day one, making "Hello World" programs, and not full blown isometric RPG games with OGL or DX. There is a major gap (almost like the baby boomers generation) that is beggining to creep in here.

I am not saying don''t try, or it is impossible if you have no expereience, just, you should know the limitations you have and look for the best solutions for them, rather then putting them on a heap that doesn''t really relate to what you are asking.









#35 baskuenen   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 May 2000 - 01:36 PM

I''d rather have other people judging if I''m a newbie or not, but I think I can say I''m not...

I have no problems with newbies. I also was a newbie once, like everybody else! You have to start somewhere. It''s a good thing to respect people who think about the same things. This should be a friendly, respected and intelligent place to be...!

And: If there''s nobody who knows less - there''s nobody who knows more!

#36 Landfish   Members   -  Reputation: 288

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Posted 21 May 2000 - 04:21 PM

Jus' my opinion but...

What the hell is with all the pseudo-help-wanted posts in the design forum? I AM a newbie and I know not to put that crap in there. Clutter!

Thank you for your time...

Edited by - landfish on May 21, 2000 12:08:09 AM

#37 Chrono999   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 May 2000 - 04:35 PM

Forget newbies corner, experts corner. You''d have to pass a test to gain acces, and no VB crap, pure CPP.

#38 Landfish   Members   -  Reputation: 288

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Posted 21 May 2000 - 05:07 PM

Doesn''t help the non-coder parts of the forum. I know you guys tend to frown upon people like me, but please, don''t condemn me to the newbie part of the page just ''cause the code doesn''t speak to me! I did study you know... =)

I LOVE this site...

#39 bit64   Members   -  Reputation: 218

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Posted 21 May 2000 - 05:31 PM

Okay, there seems to be a problem with the logic in here.
If you post in this forum then it seems to me that,

A) you are a newbie at something, or else you wouldnt need to ask questions in this forum.

B) You know everything, so you are just here to answer the questions of those people that fit description A.

So what''s the problem? The problem is that you are tagging people with a term that you haven''t fully defined. Newbie.
Are the newbies the ones in here asking stupid questions? No. Those are stupid people. Should we have a stupid people forum? No, we should just ignore those posts. Is this a new problem that Felonius has just discovered? No, this has been a problem in every forum since the inception of the internet. Forums are for people who need information. Newbies by definition, are those people. Forums, therefore, are for newbies. If you don''t like this fact, then open up vi, or notepad throw together some HTML and create your own advanced users forum. Or wait, maybe you''re a newbie and don''t know how to do that.
Cmon people, wake up.



#40 Etnu   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 880

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Posted 21 May 2000 - 05:37 PM

I have noticed that many of the "newbies" on gamedev are actually experienced programmers, just not in the game development field. I myself had no concept of how to do a blit, how 3D math worked, how bsp worked(still lost on that one ), etc. Now I have programmed databases professionally for about a year and a half, I know 5 different programming languages, and yet in the games business, I am still a "newbie". I try to learn, and if I get flamed by someone who thinks that they are so much better than me, I try to come up with some response (or just ignore the immature ones). You can never get rid of all the newbies, that would be like saying "well if we teach everone Calculus, we will never have to teach it to anyone again". People die, people are born.

Etnu

What is a man without goals? A dead man.




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