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Is this place overrun by newbies?

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#41 SiCrane   Moderators   -  Reputation: 9851


Posted 21 May 2000 - 05:38 PM

As long as the newbie forum posts showed up on the activetopics page, I, for one, would answer questions put there. I read every thread started on this board that seems like it would be a real question.

Personally, the only times I get narfed are when a) someone seems to completely ignore a post and reposts the question rather than asking the poster to clarify or b) someone whos been on the boards for a long time posts a question that they should seen the answer to before.

Actually add abuse of HTML tags (blink especially) to my list of pet peeves.


#42 Ingenu   Members   -  Reputation: 995


Posted 21 May 2000 - 09:57 PM

I think that newbies must try to learn a bit more by themselves before asking for help.
Most questions answers are available here, or in som docs (Thinking od DX questions)

I''m unhappy to see questions that can be answered somwhere to be post here.

why newbies didn''t try to find answers by themselves before asking for help, this is something I don''t understand !?

If you don''t think about a problem and just ask for an answer I doubt you''ll be good at anytime...


-* Sounds, music and story makes the difference between good and great games *-

#43 Hase   Members   -  Reputation: 313


Posted 21 May 2000 - 10:00 PM

I guess there is no way to sort the newbies from the wannabes but how about starting a project, letting everyone add his/her bit and then compiling it all in a kind of "Game devellopers recipe".

I mean, nowadays everything comes with easy-to-use 10 step instructions, why not try and apply this to game design?

Of course, a lot of you are going to get mad at me because game devellopment is never that easy and you can´t just do that and so on ..... but it should be possible to put together a set of guidelines (FAQ, technical advice ....) for your typical beginners first attempt at making a game.

If you look at the graveyard of the unborn games ... Most of them died of lack of planning. I guess every "1st" game that finishes has at least 3 brothers and sisters who didn´t make it. (my own no difference. when you start out, being a player, you go along the lines, this is cool, i wanna do something like it. completely unaware of the important points, like how much planning and time it takes to pull a project through)

What do you think?

#44 Spiff   Members   -  Reputation: 122


Posted 21 May 2000 - 10:25 PM

Original post by Chrono999

Forget newbies corner, experts corner. You''d have to pass a test to gain acces, and no VB crap, pure CPP.

Excuse me? Since when did VB turn into crap? If you want to make your statements with no facts to back it up, please do that somewhere else. Judging from your post, you''d be the first to fail that test.

Second, is the VB questions on Gamedev the problem here? I don''t think so! There are hardly any at all.

God, what is it with all ignorant bastards who think everything they know nothing about is crap?

Daniel Netz, Sentinel Design
"I'm not stupid, I'm from Sweden" - Unknown

#45 Fisk   Members   -  Reputation: 122


Posted 21 May 2000 - 10:29 PM

Is bicker among yourselfs the only thing that all you "saints", "zealots" and "dedicated" are truly good at? Or can you maybe dance to?

Edited by - fisk on May 22, 2000 5:32:46 AM

#46 *Angelfish*   Members   -  Reputation: 122


Posted 21 May 2000 - 10:58 PM

The attitude towards newbies these days annoys me very much. I was a newbie once, and I would be seriously disheartened if people would slag me off just for asking things those people already know. Sure, I am a newbie in some perspectives such as 3D programming.

If the gamedev staff starts moderating on this, the newbies will post under their newbies section, but because such a huge lot of people don''t like newbies questions - and like slagging them off giving them a "at least I am not as dumb as him" feeling - their questions will never be answered. I trust geoff on this and I don''t think he will take such a hypocrite action. If however I see that some day only non-newbies are allowed in here I will revolt against this, and I will do everything in my power to see this reversed or/and throw as much mud / do as much damage to/at Gamedev as possible. Not that I dislike gamedev in any way, it''s become my favorite place to go for information on game development. If you however dislike reading and even answering newbie questions, go to another site, or start a closed discussion board where you can discuss how good you are to eachother.

Before you misunderstand me :
I define this as Newbies : the people who do not know much about game development but express an interest to learn about it, and are willing to put some time into it. I think every professional game programmer has started this way.

And the wannabies :
The people who think game development is easy and that you can learn it in a week, the people who think that with good tools one can easily make a good game, the ones that want to "make games like Halflife or Quake".

The wannabies maybe can be moderated if you want, Geoff. (where are you anyway?) BUT PLEASE send them a message about it that says what they have done wrong, so that they can learn from their mistakes.

#47 TheTwistedOne   Members   -  Reputation: 122


Posted 21 May 2000 - 11:35 PM

Mmm. I am getting more and more annoyed at people posting ridiculous questions, like "where can I get an inventory plugin like the one used in Diablo!?!?!?!?!?".

I think this is the type of 'newbie' we're talking about here. Or 'wannabe', as someone more accurately termed them - hell, I'm a newbie, as regards DirectX and OGL, even though I get paid to code during the day.

I made a rather harsh reply to someone the other day, who couldn't understand why replacing variables in the prototype for WinMain with actual values wouldn't work - I'm not proud of it, but I won't be removing it, because that's how I feel (and sorry for using you as an example, if you're reading this, but I haven't made such replies elsewhere).

Someone else said it earlier in this thread - this is a games development site, and yet the forums are being flooded with questions from people who just don't know how to program, and don't want to learn the old-fashioned way.

When I signed up for the forums (not that long ago - probably four or five months), it was because I was gleaning valuable information for myself, and there were people who were genuinely stuck on something.

At the time, I was getting over the oddities and complexities of DirectDraw, and could understand the issues, and moreover, I could help . What a rush!

These days, I find it harder and harder to gather the courage to come and look at what's around - there's a lot of chaff to crawl through, to reach the wheat.

I can't really think of a solution, though. Other than for me to just stop coming here. That's not what I want, but what if everyone (real newbies through gods) stopped coming here, because of the flood of wannabes getting in the way, and generally raising blood-pressure?

Am I making sense? I think I've overdone the caffeine this morning...


Edited by - TheTwistedOne on May 22, 2000 6:40:10 AM

#48 MadKeithV   Moderators   -  Reputation: 971


Posted 22 May 2000 - 01:46 AM

Original post by Fisk
Is bicker among yourselfs the only thing that all you "saints", "zealots" and "dedicated" are truly good at? Or can you maybe dance to?

This is EXACTLY the kind of stuff that starts to really tick me off, and I''m SURE I''m not the only one.
If this is a so-called "newbie" that are trying so hard to defend themselves ( with reason! ), I''m starting to doubt the validity of defending them.
Sorry Fisk, but I will remember your name, and make a point of NEVER answering a question you ask, ever again. If you cannot treat the regular posters with respect, don''t expect to get any back either.

#pragma DWIM // Do What I Mean!
~ Mad Keith ~

#49 sman   Members   -  Reputation: 122


Posted 22 May 2000 - 02:20 AM

I believe that everything here has gotten off topic. I do think that there is a split that should be defined "Newbie" and "Wannabe".

Don''t come here expecting to learn how to use a compiler. That is something you ca learn on your own, through the tons of books on the subject as well as the information on the web. People are right this is not "LearnToProgram" this is "GameDev".

A lot of people come here posting ridiculous questions like how to build a "Quake" or "Unreal" engine?!?! Get real, this is ridiculous! If I could code it, I would! But what happened to the serious people, like myself who rather find the answer than ask a million questions and have the answer handed to you! You learn a lot more if you would just search for the answer yourself. The search itself may answer a million questions on a totally different part of programming that you didn''t expect! The knowledge.

I consider myself a newbie in game programming. I have been professionally programming for 3 years now. And I like to dig for the answer myself no matter how long it takes. But asking stupid questions like "How do I compile?", "How do I write a windows applications?", "How do I use DirectX?" Those questions are stupid, because if you where truly determined you can find the answer yourself.

Another point is I also use Visual Basic to program with, also Visual C++, and it''s cool that they put DirectX integration in it, but it still is another layer of translation. It goes from VB->DX translation->DX API, with C you bypass the translation portion, so you do get somewhat faster responses doing certain procedures. But in a couple years everyone will have 1Ghz processors, so the speed of the program really wouldn''t matter anymore =)

#50 *Angelfish*   Members   -  Reputation: 122


Posted 22 May 2000 - 04:27 AM

Oh, you shouldn''t be offended by my last post. It appeared more insulting than I intended it to be.

Allright. I too think that newbies are nothing wrong. Everybody was a newbie once and if you are a newbie now then you can''t really help it, so the people here shouldn''t be slagging you off for being a newbie.
However, some posting guidelines would be appreciated.
Also keep in mind that we really have to make a split up between Newbies and Wannabees.
Hopefully if we do it long enough, it will become some sort of standard on the community.

Oh: and if people ask questions like "how do i make games like...." then they probably haven''t even coded their ''hello world'' yet.

One day, when I just started programming, I made my first program with a bug in it, and I couldn''t fix it. And then I knew that making a game was gonna be a hell of a task.

I also believe that newbies deserve the same respect as professional programmers. It''s the effort that counts.

And hey! It would be really awesome if we could "make games in an afternoon" !

#51 Dave Astle   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 2307


Posted 22 May 2000 - 05:42 AM

I think a big problem with posts like this is that anyone who is new who sees it is likely to get offended. I think the problem is that "newbie" doesn''t really mean everyone who is new.

I like to use two terms: "beginner" and "newbie." Beginner refers to someone who is just starting out, but is eager to learn, and just looking for guidance. We need to be patient with beginners, because they will eventually be great contributors to the community.

"Newbies" on the other hand are people who possess one or more of a number of undesirable traits. These include things like expecting to have everything handed to them, an unwillingness to figure out things on their own, laziness, rudeness, and lack of respect. Note that they don''t necessarily have to be new. We should try to help these people too, because they can change, although in many cases they do not. Although it''s tempting to flame newbies, it doesn''t really do any good, and it often makes things worse. Just try to post a simple reply, preferably pointing them to a book or article that will answer their question and maybe possibly get the on the road out of "newbieness". If they become a nuisance, make sure the forum moderators knows so he/she can handle the situation appropriately.

As a couple of people have said, there are almost as many newbie bashing posts as there are posts by newbies (well, maybe not almost as many, but a significant number). I think they are starting to do more harm than good.

#52 halo 9   Members   -  Reputation: 122


Posted 22 May 2000 - 05:43 AM

My take on forums is that the serious game makers don''t hang around forums, because they are a waste of time, for the most part. People talk about ideas, complain about not having a project, but when a real project forms, they would generally prefer to stick to the forum banter rather than commit to a poject...generally speaking.

Forums are good for meeting people to work with, but beyond that, they only cause problems. Read through the postings here, and you will notice that about 99% of them are useless. By useless, I mean they will never yield any tangable results, and will not to solve any problem. To sum up, I would just use it to make contacts.

#53 MadKeithV   Moderators   -  Reputation: 971


Posted 22 May 2000 - 06:57 AM

Actually, since the start of this thread, I have attempted to make my replies to people''s questions longer, more coherent, and more thought-through. I realised that I HAD been getting a bit short-tempered in my responses, and probably not doing much good.
Whatever people may think of me by now, I really do not want to discourage anyone from trying to learn to program games ( or graphics ) - the more in the business, the better. We can all learn from eachother, even the vets from the beginners.

And the newbies, well, I guess some people have a bit of ego, and haven''t realised yet that it''s not as easy to start programming games as it is to get good grades in high-school on every subject. While I''m sure these people have the capacity to program games, they still lack the understanding, and it''s our responsability to try to give them that understanding, patiently, and softly correcting if they cross the line of courtesy.
Only if they repeatedly offend, and continue after warning, then perhaps we need intervention. But realistically, how often does it get that bad?

#pragma DWIM // Do What I Mean!
~ Mad Keith ~

#54 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696


Posted 22 May 2000 - 01:00 PM

Well, just in defense of myself, my thread was not meant to bash newbies (although some may have interpreted it that way). Just thought I''d mention that in case anyone is trying to include me in the newbie-bashers category.

I guess the problem with "newbies" as opposed to beginners is not so much stupid questions, but instead bad attitudes. That''s what annoys me. I couldn''t care less if they post asking what a pointer is, but if they haven''t even tried to figure out what it is on their own, then that really annoys me. It''s a matter of respect really. I''m more then happy to help anyone who posts, but if they expect me to spend *my* time when they haven''t spent any of *their* time, then that really irritates me.

In other words, to those people who want to learn and are willing to put in some effort, don''t be discouraged. Most of us are glad you''re here. The anti-newbie posts aren''t directed at the dedicated people -- they''re directed at the guys who think that everything should be handed to them on a silver platter.


#55 Hase   Members   -  Reputation: 313


Posted 22 May 2000 - 10:29 PM

Yo -- anybody?

what about the recipe idea?

think it´s stupid?

#56 altair734   Members   -  Reputation: 122


Posted 22 May 2000 - 11:28 PM

I don''t mind newbies, only when they ask the wrong question. Some people need to take more time to learn. I spent most of last summer learning C, and it''s turned out good. So for newbies, before you go here, spend some time on your own, do some coding, and when you know the basics, ask the question.


#57 baskuenen   Members   -  Reputation: 122


Posted 23 May 2000 - 11:33 AM

Have to come back on my previous post,

Newbies are oke, unless there are about 99% of them on this board.

#58 baskuenen   Members   -  Reputation: 122


Posted 23 May 2000 - 12:11 PM

Are you serious?

#59 nes8bit   Members   -  Reputation: 275


Posted 23 May 2000 - 12:17 PM

Original post by black_eyez

I don''t want to start a debate about vb vs c++, but VB is a serious language, and can be very useful for game programming (though some more intensive effects such as alpha blending are done better through an assembly dll etc.) So the addition of vb support into dx7 wasn''t just something for newbies; there are quite a few good game programmers that have wanted dx support since version 3!

I think there should be a ''newbie-only'' type forum, where these types of people should be confined to And, a general FAQ list would be nice, covering the stupid questions like "How do I make a game?" and stuff like that


Finally, someone who agrees with me!

#60 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:


Posted 23 May 2000 - 01:00 PM

There is a problem with trying to solve the newbie riddle.

People say try reading the what''s new, questions have been answered, etc, and are suggesting things like a newbie forum and other methods to deal with their bias against newbies.

Now come along two (or more) groups who take positions such as:

You were all newbies once.


When I was a newbie, I tried to solve the problem on my own.

And so an effort is made to separate the impatient newbie from the willing to look for the answers first newbie.

But the problem arises that few people can tell the difference.

It''s easy to say read the manual, and many times, people who do read the manual will get their questions answered. But sometimes, the manual doesn''t help. Go to the DirectX/OpenGL forum and see how many questions were answered with "Read the DirectX SDK help. All the info you need is there". But here is where the problem comes in for the "newbie". Many times, the manual is just incomprehensible, even if you do know Visual Basic or C++. Many people have specific goals on where they want to go, and don''t really want to learn COM completely, just a couple features. Others can use the help file, and voila, their question is answered.
But what of the person who can''t understand the help file (or manual), and has a question? Find another book?
That could go on for a long time. Sure, somewhere in this world, their is bound to be an answer for almost every question that they could ask, but after searching a long time, many people give up.
Although they may look impatient, maybe their impatience is gained by searching for a long time.
IE: One of my relatives just got a first computer. My relative doesn''t even know where or what the power button is. Sometimes for a complete beginner, even the simplest of tasks can be too complicated for them.
So everytime I show her where it is, she says something like "Oh, you meant the thingy."
Also, many people like to take things one step at a time. How many computer programming books do you have that seem to go from:

"Step 1: (show how to create the window)"
"Step 2: (show how to add the graphics, tool bars, dialog boxes, etc)"
I honestly have several like that. I just want to do one little thing, and find an easy step one (like 10 lines of code), and all of the sudden the next step, with little explanation becomes 10 pages of code, and I have honestly no idea what just happened.

With asking questions, even repeatedly, the newbie might find it easier to take everything line by line, rather than concept by concept. If books tried writing a thourough guide to simple questions:

1: It would be long (probably several thousand pages)
2: It would be very difficult to find what you are searching for.
3: It wouldn''t contain as much information as books contain now, because they tend to be brief and cover a series of topics.

Personally I am glad there are newbies, even if people tend to resent them. The more people who try, the bigger chance that something good might come about.

Remember the golden rule. Do you want people treating you like you them? Or would you prefer help from those with experience.

Also, just because you remember yourself as a hard worker in the beginning doesn''t necessarily mean others remember you the same way.

{The preceding was in no way meant to be an attack on any people, newbies or experts.)

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