Python too advanced?
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Reading an article in Game Programming Gems last night got me thinking about scripting languages. One major purpose is to allow artists and designers to quickly test out new ideas and tweak existing features. By using such a developed scripting language like Python, are we eleminating that use? Are we just heaping additional programming burden on the programmers, because we can''t offer a simple enough solution for the non-programmers?
I have not used Python before but was planning too when scripting becomes appropriate for my needs, so maybe I am overly thoughtful of its complexities. However, expecting the artists to become good programmers would require expecting me to become a good artist, and that''s not going to happen.
The Tyr project is here.
Yeah, I believe Python is too advanced for non-programmers to pick up instantly. But it also depends on what you want your artists and designers to archieve with the scripting language. If you expect them to write scripts for weapons or simple enemy logic, then they *have* to be able to program in some degree, no matter what the scripting language is. If that's too high of a demand, you might have to settle for a data-driven approach. I.e. by editing some simple attributes like
they could archieve at least something..
Okay, maybe what I said at first is a bit misleading. Python isn't such a hard scripting language when compared to other scripting languages, so if you plan to use a scripting language then Python is a good choice.
[edited by - civguy on March 20, 2003 5:59:52 PM]
weapon { gunmodel = megablaster.3ds reload_time = 0.4 particle_type = plasma trail = sparkly colourfulness = so_colourful_it_makes_my_eyes_hurt heat-seeking? = no bouncing = of_course} they could archieve at least something..
Okay, maybe what I said at first is a bit misleading. Python isn't such a hard scripting language when compared to other scripting languages, so if you plan to use a scripting language then Python is a good choice.
[edited by - civguy on March 20, 2003 5:59:52 PM]
I plan on using a Lisp (or maybe just a language based on Lisp) for my scripting language. Since I want the community to be able to easily create scripts for custom maps, I plan on writing a simple tutorial on it. I feel Lisp is an easy to understand language because it doesn't have so many different special cases like most languages do. There is basically one syntax for functions, and that is "(func arg1 arg2 arg3 arg4 ...)".
Since almost everything can be done with functions, the only other thing you need to know is the different kinds of data, like a number, list, array, and hash table. Structures are very simple to handle in Lisp imo, you can set the properties like
(setf ([type name]-[property] [variable name]) [value])
I'll probably make it in windows help-file format for easy indexing.
[edited by - Extrarius on March 20, 2003 6:42:26 PM]
Since almost everything can be done with functions, the only other thing you need to know is the different kinds of data, like a number, list, array, and hash table. Structures are very simple to handle in Lisp imo, you can set the properties like
(setf ([type name]-[property] [variable name]) [value])
I'll probably make it in windows help-file format for easy indexing.
[edited by - Extrarius on March 20, 2003 6:42:26 PM]
The important part is that the power doesn''t clutter the syntax.
Simple things are simple; the more advanced topics rarely (if ever) get in the way of the way the simple stuff works.
I''m hip because I say "M$" instead of "MS".
Simple things are simple; the more advanced topics rarely (if ever) get in the way of the way the simple stuff works.
I''m hip because I say "M$" instead of "MS".
Well, I don''t really think it''s that "advanced". There are certainly language features that are not obvious, but only rarely does this negatively affect anyone who doesn''t know about those features (unlike, say, C++ templates, which affect anyone who uses the STL).
Can you point out a language that is simpler for the kinds of people you want to use the language and the things they want to do with it?
Can you point out a language that is simpler for the kinds of people you want to use the language and the things they want to do with it?
All general purpose scripting languages are WAY too complicated for artists, designers to be using ... WITHOUT some form of framework, or limitations (even if they are implied).
If you have artists write standalone programs, learning all the modules and systax, you are wasting time and money ... if you take a little time to put a small frame (wrapper or some such) around the blocks of code the artist is going to write ... then they are MUCH less likely to make silly non-programmer mistakes.
For example ... if you ONLY ask your artists to subclass your actors and object, and provide a few examples ... and let them drop their custom code strait into a simple template which a programmer has made ... then 1 programmer day, can save 10 artist headaches. And if you let them type raw data into PLAIN-TEXT, or even XML data files, and then load that with some programmer written code (and PLEASE output good error messages which point to any formatting bugs), then the artists and designers can use spreadsheets and third party tools, to be enourmously productive.
(I''m hip because I know MS mean Multiple Sclerosis)
If you have artists write standalone programs, learning all the modules and systax, you are wasting time and money ... if you take a little time to put a small frame (wrapper or some such) around the blocks of code the artist is going to write ... then they are MUCH less likely to make silly non-programmer mistakes.
For example ... if you ONLY ask your artists to subclass your actors and object, and provide a few examples ... and let them drop their custom code strait into a simple template which a programmer has made ... then 1 programmer day, can save 10 artist headaches. And if you let them type raw data into PLAIN-TEXT, or even XML data files, and then load that with some programmer written code (and PLEASE output good error messages which point to any formatting bugs), then the artists and designers can use spreadsheets and third party tools, to be enourmously productive.
(I''m hip because I know MS mean Multiple Sclerosis)
quote:Original post by Extrarius
I plan on using a Lisp (or maybe just a language based on Lisp) for my scripting language. Since I want the community to be able to easily create scripts for custom maps, I plan on writing a simple tutorial on it.
From what I've seen, people seem to have an aversion to functional programming. It doesn't follow sequential paradigm of imperative languages, which maps more easily to real life. Also the whole XML-ish "the program is a tree structure" and relatively high conceptual overhead make it less than ideal for "the community." Don't let your personal enthusiasm for the language complicate the situation for your intended end users.
Remember, people are much more familiar with imperative languages (eg javascript) or simple markup (eg HTML, XML); playing to their strengths increases ease and thus rate of adoption.
quote:I feel Lisp is an easy to understand language because it doesn't have so many different special cases like most languages do. There is basically one syntax for functions, and that is "(func arg1 arg2 arg3 arg4 ...)".
Compare (Python):
def func( arg1, arg2, ...argN ):
function body
Keep in mind that many programmers (even) find Lisp's "excessive parenthesization" irritating. It'll definitely lose non-technical users.
quote:Structures are very simple to handle in Lisp imo, you can set the properties like
(setf ([type name]-[property] [variable name]) [value])
Compare x = y. You lose.
Note that I'm not knocking Lisp. I actually like the language (I've used ProLog as well). I'm simply saying that additional complexity (even if only in the initial stages) can be quite off-putting to a non-technical audience, if that's your target.
[Edit: Python is whitespace-delimited. Forum swallowed my spaces.]
[edited by - Oluseyi on March 21, 2003 4:27:36 AM]
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quote:Original post by the Speed Bump
The important part is that the power doesn''t clutter the syntax.
Having no experience with Python, this is one of the things I was wondering. Good to know.
quote:Original post by Flarelocke
Can you point out a language that is simpler for the kinds of people you want to use the language and the things they want to do with it?
Basically, waht I was getting at was whether to use a well established albeit generic scripting language, or whether to write my own specific yet funtionally limited scripting language. A scripiting language written specifically for the game would be simpler, and would be geared more towards allowing the non-programmers to make uncompiled changes easily.
I think that based on everyone''s (very helpful) posts, it may be best to use an established language such as python, while also creating special case frameworks (from the primary scripting language) that allow the non-programmers to accomplish specific tasks.
The Tyr project is here.
I fail to see how anybody can call python complicated. I moved on from gamemaker aplications and went to python when I was 13. I have never had any trouble undersatnding any of it, and am now capable of writing fairly decent games in python (with the use of pygame of course).
If a 13 year old can handle it, it should be easy for anybody with more brains than a chimp. Sorry if that sounded like an insult, it was not. It was more a statment.
If a 13 year old can handle it, it should be easy for anybody with more brains than a chimp. Sorry if that sounded like an insult, it was not. It was more a statment.
Author
quote:Original post by Shylock
I fail to see how anybody can call python complicated...
Your perspective is skewed. Is it easy for a programmer? Yes. Is any scripting language fairly simple for a programmer? Yes. Is it easy for someone who has aboslutely no interest or background in programming whatsoever? Probably not. Is it a waste of time to teach someone with no interest or real need how to use it effectively? Probably.
You are taking the perspective of someone who is interested in that aspect of games creation. The entire point is to analyse its value as a tool for those whose job is NOT to program.
The Tyr project is here.
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