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what do you think about this idea


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#21 Iron Chef Carnage   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1630

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 01:52 PM

This is crazy complex. My advice is to study up on artificial life, and then try to use that to build the world. If you manually construct the map and place the objects, there's little chance that you'll put the forest where a forest can be sustained, unless you're the world's greatest ecologist. Best to define the species and their properties, and then tweak and balance until the world lasts for a few thousand game years. Then you can get to work on cities. A properly modelled world could work a bit like the Matrix, and could be sustainable. Realize, though, that you won't be building a mere game, you'll be building a world.

In all honesty, I can't imagine this working without an absolutely unprecedented amount of research. There are some things that aren't done in video games because the peple that know how to do them don't make video games. This is one of the things that doesn't appear in video games because it simply can't be done by anyone currently alive. Get a team of geologists, meteorologists, botanists, biologists, ecologists and astronomers together, and call the first few years of work on this game "scholarly research". Then steal the software, and build your game on that. Heck, if you play your cards right, you could get a fantastic game and a handful of Nobel Prizes out of the bargain.

Actually modelling so deep a world is an arrogant goal. Start off by creating the illusion of the world you describe. Instead of calculating falling seeds, have a probability of a tree sprouting within a certain range of an existing tree. Instead of tracking the motions and behaviors of every deer and fox, have population densities that determine the probability of encountering one in a given region. Game design is about what the player sees. Everything else is just wasted CPU time. 3D engines forget about polygons when they aren't on-screen. Do the same with the changes in the world.

[edited by - Iron Chef Carnage on May 12, 2003 8:56:51 PM]

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#22 bzroom   Members   -  Reputation: 646

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 01:56 PM

if its its own os, isn''t dx out?, that requires windows i thought....

#23 Joe-Bob   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 02:14 PM

I''m afraid this isn''t possible, really. Whip out a calculator, do some math, and figure out how much memory and disk space it would take to store all of this. Also, you can''t make a new OS if you''re going to use DirectX.

On top of this, get some actual programming experience. The reason that you can''t just send an idea to a company is that most people have no clue what actually goes into games. This goal is much to ambitious for just about anyone short of a team of highly funded ecologists. It''s just not feasable, especially for someone asking how to change variables in a program.

#24 kingpinzs   Members   -  Reputation: 106

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 02:22 PM

x box uses direct x and does not have windows so no i dont needed windows

#25 kingpinzs   Members   -  Reputation: 106

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 02:25 PM

you now joe-bob I can do what I want just because you cant do it dont mean some one elsa can not.

#26 kingpinzs   Members   -  Reputation: 106

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 02:27 PM

by the way I build robots for a hobby so you know I do know A thing or to about hardware and AI

#27 bzroom   Members   -  Reputation: 646

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 02:29 PM

and i think i read somewehre that xbox ran a hacked win ME or osmething, its from microsoft im sure it has either some ultra hacked windows or an ultra hacked version of direct x

edit::
how owuld we know that, u just told us, plus what kind of robots do u build, ones with basic stamp, beam neuro nets, hacked cell phones, ones interfaced straight to ur worldsgreatestcandoevertyhign computer? ahah and how much of that hardware will be relavent to your game programming needs?

[edited by - honayboyz on May 12, 2003 9:31:52 PM]

#28 Iron Chef Carnage   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1630

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 02:33 PM

Don''t get defensive, kingpinzs. You''ll never win this argument with words. Let''s see some results: A design document, a chunk of code, even some concept art would go a long way toward shutting the mouths of your detractors. Don''t say it can be done, prove it can be done. You are in a position that has been held by men who are remembered as heroes of the human race. Avogadro, Columbus, Copernicus, they were all ridiculed and abused by their contemporaries, but history gives them the credit they deserve. Except maybe Columbus. He''s getting some flak for abusing the crap out of the natives.

Of course, they were all incredible geniuses with decades of training and study under their belts. Except maybe Columbus, he was kind of a goon. But he has his own day, and no small number of cities named after him. Anyone here take Avogadro day off? Didn''t think so. I''m not even sure I spelled his name right.

#29 kingpinzs   Members   -  Reputation: 106

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 02:34 PM

Ok people I am not making it an exact sience I am doing it for fun so if the fish are swimming in the air it is not going to matter. A game is for fun not for life or death. so when I make the world it will be the way i see the world and not the way every one elsa sees it.

#30 SarsDP   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 02:49 PM

Do you even know how neural networks work? If you do can you explain them to me

#31 kingpinzs   Members   -  Reputation: 106

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Posted 12 May 2003 - 03:12 PM

Another thing When you die you have an option to be reborn as some one elsa start a new game or continue in the wrold as some one elsa but not as a child like a body snacher type thing. there also is going to be a fantsy world if the player so desiers.

#32 Unwise owl   Members   -  Reputation: 158

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 02:14 AM

*Laughing my ___ off*. This thread is so funny to read, I won''t explain why because I''d get flamed by its creator.

#33 m_wherrett   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 02:32 AM

These posts (they crop up every couple of weeks or so) used to REALLY annoy me. However, after careful consideration I actually find them quite amusing. Anyway, I have taken time out to perfect the ideal response. Observe...


Sounds like a cool idea dude. I'd really like to play that. I can't believe nowone has thought of that yet? It makes me wanna kick myself. I really am eager to see this game made. I have a few suggestions however:

1. This is a real nice idea so try to keep it quiet. I'd do the same for any other ideas like this one. You never know who might steal your concept.

2. Get started on it now. Lock yourself away and get beavering. I can't wait to see a demo coming together.

Best of luck buddy.



[edited by - m_wherrett on May 13, 2003 9:38:40 AM]

#34 Buster   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 02:50 AM

Just make a Tetris clone like everyone else!

#35 thelurch   Members   -  Reputation: 156

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 03:20 AM

m_wherrett that is just evil!!!

Anyway, Kingpinzs, You might not believe it but the truth is mopst people here are actually trying to help you (in thier own ''special'' way).

My advice:
Nothing is impossible! Nothing!!! Of course sacrifices have to made at different levels and compromise based on available resources.
The truth is everyone has had an idea like yours at one time or the other in thier gaming life. But they give it up almost immediately becuase they decide it''s far too difficult.

The advantage you have is that you haven''t given up yet. However, from the way you sound it seems you actually have no idea just how difficult it can be. Duesx Ex is a good example of what can come out of an idea like this when the it is properly handled. But Deus Ex had been announced more about 5 years before it finally was released. And it had already been in the pipeline long before that and they had miilons of pounds and tons of staff at thier disposal.

Still, by all means, break a leg

#36 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 07:54 AM

The thing that gets me the most is the OS part, if you were to make it into an OS, then you would also have to include things like file access and such. Windows XP is well over 50 Million (no joke, read it somewhere) lines of code, and that is just a regular OS. Now image trying to take just a regular OS, and turning into a 3D Real Life Simulator. It is just impossible for 1 person (even hundreds) to tackle. Microsoft is a huge company, with many employees, and it still takes them some years to develop an OS.

#37 irbrian   Members   -  Reputation: 130

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Posted 14 May 2003 - 01:31 PM

I think there''ve been more than enough posters commenting on the level of ambition you''re showing here, kingpinzs, so I won''t add to it. Instead I''ll throw in my own ideas, and hopefully spice up this discussion with a bit of controversial debate.

I''ve toyed with the notion of someday building an artificial life simulator. I''m not talking about something on the scale of Creatures or Petz -- I''m talking about a living world populated by artificial creatures of varying intelligence.

Here''s what I had in mind: The simulated world would run on a high-speed network of powerful servers, with each server dedicated to performing a specific set of duties, and would interact with each other on a hierarchical basis. The top layer would manage the process, handling requests for information and so forth.

As an example, one or more machines might handle positioning, storing and tracking the positions of every object in the simulated world. Another machine might handle the AI for a set number of creatures. If one of those AI creatures wants to move, it sends a request up the chain of command to the positioning system. The positioning system approves the movement and returns a success flag, or a failure flag accompanied by a list of possible positions.

This is just an example of course, I haven''t built it yet. In fact I''ll probably never get to it at all, and if I did it would be with the help of a pretty impressive team of dedicated computer scientists.

My point is that something like what kingpinz is describing MAY be possible someday if he''s willing to compromise to an extent to achieve his dream.

****************************************

Brian Lacy
ForeverDream Studios

Comments? Questions? Curious?
brian@foreverdreamstudios.com

"I create. Therefore I am."

#38 kingpinzs   Members   -  Reputation: 106

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Posted 14 May 2003 - 01:49 PM

well so far I have a 5 page deisghn doc for my idea and it is still growing
this is what i have so far. pleas leav any sugstions and ideas to improve the game any.


  
My very own game design and engines
Ver 1.5
Game design doc

Fist it will be self expanding all interactive game engine. The games will fully interactive.
So depending on were you start, generally what will happen is that the world will start small and expand by it self. You give it the necessary things and expand from that. Ex1
Also what you do will stay in the game it just becomes another game object, texture or NPC’s you can have kids and they will grow old and die. Kill any one you want to and marry who you want. Also there will be if you want all the you also will be able to go inside every building you see and interact with every object you find and talk to every one you meet. There also will be back ground music if wanted.

You say it is pretty cool but not unique enough. Well how about this. You can type things to the npc’s and they will reply in sound to what ever you type just like the famous Eliza program.
You say that is cool but who likes typing.
Well if you want to you can train the voice requntion system so you can talk and not type or point and click to interact with npc’s ex4

My reasons for making this game.
I always thought it would be cool to go some were people have use to live and explore. Like a big city with planes and stuff we can not mess with in real life. What am trying to achieved in computer gaming

Goal (1) Make a fully interactive game.
(2) Make it fully exploitable.
(3) Have plants and animals reproduce and function sort of like in the real world.
(4) Make a fully functional weather engine.
(5) Make Npc’s that function on there own and reproduce and make things them self’s for your world.
(6) Have a never ending game

Game Options
1. You can start a new world or play in a pre maid one.
2. You can make your own character or use an existing one
3. Make your own buildings or use ones already made
4. You start at what are you decide or the game decides
5. You can die and start over or continue as a new person but in same world


Examples
A tree grows and gets seeds. Seeds hit the ground and depending on lots of variables they will grow or not grow and become big trees or die as younglings.
There will be weather to change your world and also volcanoes earthquakes and other things



FAQ.
Questions about the game etc
1. Q. Are other games going to use things from this one?
Most likely they will make them 100% interactive environment going any were doing any thing you want and also self expanding

2. Q. how will you guarantee that it will be FUN?
A. ? That will be detumend on how many people

3. Q. what is the point in playing this when it is just like real life?
A. Think about this you can kill with out getting into real life trouble. You can do what you want in the game world that you fantasies doing in the real world.

4. Q. Wont it be to complicated doing everything your self
A. You can use already made world with goals and everything but still do what you want in the infinite universe

5. Q. Does the land expand or grow?
A. Why would that happen? That would be pointless. It will be a set land and see just like the earth.

6. Q how many objects can it take?
A . Well it will have a lot of objects. I am thinking about your world will be
covered in plants animals etc. No man made things yet. Then as you and your
clan grows more objects there will be. I am thinking about 3 million then it starts growing for now to grow new life something else has to die to keep the animals and plants at 3 million. Land and water only count as 2 objects people count as one a peace and trees and there seeds will start at 10 objects leaves count as one object for now.(every thing subject to change as new technologies come out.

7. Q. Are there going to be levels?
A. Yes and no. there will be load points but no jumping to points it will look like were you came from is right behind you because it is. So to that aspect

8. Q. What type of game is it?
A. It will be a mixed rpg, fps and a bunch of others.

9. Q. Why create the game?
A. To make a game that no one else has ever made. Make a game that want to play and never get bored and never have to buy another game.

10. Q. Were does the game take place?
A. It takes place in the beginning of time with the earth was new. It will be on a world that is picked by the player. It could be the real world or it could be a world out of any book you have ever read.

11. Q. What do I control and how many of them?
A. You control a single person in first or third person view. If you are good enough you can get people to follow you and you can tell them what to do.

12. Q. What is the main focus?
A. To do what you want. To survive and to be the ruler of your world if that is what your hart desires. To go every were you want with no limitations. Go in every building. Interact with every npc. And interact with every object you come across. To see what it might look like in the beginning of time.

13. Q. What’s Different about this game?
A. I am taking a bunch of games and movies and putting them together to get One Big Life Simulation. It will be a game that never ends. You will die but will be born again as your self or as some one else. It will be all up to the player on what happens.

Feature Set
General
Huge World
1 player
3D graphics
16-bit color
Plants
Animals
Npc’s
Water
Ground
Sky with clouds

Game engines
Weather engine
Physics engine
AI engine
Particle engine


Multiplayer features
Noun for now

Editors
Map editor
Object Editor
Player Editor
Game Editor (only for designers)



Game play
You will start in a garden with a mate (optional). Then you will do the basic stuff gather food, make shelter, get water, and keep away peratitors and any other bad things.
You will need to reproduce to make the world gain it’s population and to get the game to proceed. Then you grow old and die. Then you have the option to be reborn as your self or as some one else or something else like a monkey or dolphin etc. Then you will see how your previous life affected the world. You will continue the game there will be more challenges and more things to accomplish as the game goes on. If you become some one you don’t like then your goal would be to kill your self some how.

The Game World

Overview
It will be a basic round world. For any other sake it will be a flat world that just warps to the other side so it seams that it is round. There will be land water and sky. There will be plants and animals on land and in water. When you reproduce in the game that will make the well needed Npc’s to continue the game.

1)


The code to be used.
Will be programmed in Assembly, c++, Direct X, scripting language



Types of AI ( Will pick one or two to use)
Genetic Programming
Fuzzy logic
Nero networks

Other technologies
Voice recnishon

Games that it will be like
Deus ex 1&2
Max payne
Fable
Red faction 1&2
Morrow wind
Age of Empires

Other ideas.
Make it into an OS type program so it runs faster


So I will get this acompished but it will take some time that I do have to spare.

#39 Hollower   Members   -  Reputation: 604

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Posted 14 May 2003 - 02:06 PM

That's not really a design document. "Make this..." "Make that..." What you have is a list of ideas. Any kid can do this - typically known as fantasizing. By example, fashion designers don't design clothes by saying "Make it a dress. Make it silver and shiny".

I'm just saying I don't see any plan. Do you intend to program or do you intend to hand a list of ideas to someone, and in the unlikely event that they do it and give you a game, think "Wow look at *my* game that *I* made."



[edited by - Hollower on May 14, 2003 9:12:43 PM]

#40 Agentidd   Members   -  Reputation: 132

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Posted 14 May 2003 - 02:09 PM

I curse those that have flamed you for your dreams. But, i do agree.... your on the edge of impossibility(editSP*). But by hearing about your idea... The first thing that came to mind was a movie... not Matrix... The Neverending Story. That would be a cool world. Solve bounds and limitations by having the edge of forevor.... etc....change the world when its wanted...

-DD

[edited by - agentidd on May 14, 2003 9:11:17 PM]




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