I don't think we were ever talking about a "realistic self defense style simulation". Certainly grappling is different from striking, it was my assumption we were talking about the striking arts only. I don't care how effective a grappler you are, it still makes for a pretty boring game (oh look, I've had my face stuck in my partners ass for the last 15 minutes!).
In terms of striking arts, there is no difference in technique. As soon as you realize this, you will advance beyond the short-sighted approach that most martial artists have of the belief that their art is superior to all others.

And no, I would not be totally confused by an Aikido master. I've seen them in action, I know the technique they are using, I know the physics behind it. Certainly _I_ would not be able to beat an Aikido master, as I have only recently earned my first degree a year ago. However, I am confident that I could give a student with similar experience as I a good fight. This is not because of arrogance, this comes from the knowledge that there are no "Mystical" arts, and anything that my sparring partner does to me can be stopped, someway, somehow. There is no end-all, ultimate move that trumps everything. All it takes is time and perserverence.

Once again, I want to point out, THERE ARE NO MYSTICAL ARTS! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS KI/CHI! It's all simple physics (simple, in that it involves Newtonian Physics, not Quantum or otherwise). Even Bruce Lee's one-inch punch can be explained by physics (pure acceleration power. Master Lee was able to accelerate his fist to the appropriate speed over the short distance of one inch. However, when you study the forces necessary to create such an acceleration, you will realize this is not an impossible or magical task. Even Master Lee admitted everything he did had no basis in the mystical).

There are only a few basic stances. 1) Facing your opponent 2) Standing sideways to your opponent, and 3) back to your opponent. Anything else is just a feint, just an illusion to try to trick the opponent into thinking something big is coming.

Finally, grappling arts are not inherently superior to striking arts. I used to know some amazing Combat Sambo practitioners, and the only reason why my kicks would not work against them was because of their conditioning, an element completely seperate from their grappling training. A striker with such conditioning would be an amazing thing (oh, wait, there is such a thing, a WESTERN BOXER!). Constantly, I would land kicks that would crush a normal man on them well before they could get a hold of me and squeeze the air out of me. The point is, their "ART" was not superior to mine becuase of technique. They were superior "FIGHTERS" because they had effectively elliminated all of my weapons.

Now, I think some fighters take the dangerous approach of believing they can suck it up and take a hit to allow themselves to be in position to counter attack. I don't believe in blocking powerful technique. I much prefer to evade and counter, or even jam attack. With a jam attack you must have fairly fast reflexes. When you see a powerful (and consequently slow) technique coming, you throw your most powerful technique that can land before the incoming attack connects with YOU. In doing this, you throw your opponent off balance. In some cases, this can be my only defense against much larger opponents (I'm only 5'8", 150lb and usually fight 6' 225lb guys. 75lbs is a large margin to make up).

In short, fighting is independent of style. ALL striking arts are essentially equivalent, with the exception of the illusion of different stances. All arts use the same basic stances, modifying them to look different. Confusion plays a large role in fighting, a fighter that is thinking is not fighting. Human nature plays an equally large role in fighting, a fighter can be relied on to have SOME kind of habit. This is the problem with AI fighters, they have no habits, making them almost perfect. Sometimes it is better to attack quickly rather than block. Sometimes it's better to jump out of the way rather than block. Conditioning the body to withstand powerful hits can makeup for most (but not all) lack of technique.

[edited by - capn_midnight on May 25, 2003 1:38:34 AM]

quote:Certainly grappling is different from striking, it was my assumption we were talking about the striking arts only. I don''t care how effective a grappler you are, it still makes for a pretty boring game (oh look, I''ve had my face stuck in my partners ass for the last 15 minutes!).

True enough, but the intermediates make for excellent entertainment. Enter the Matrix, for example, uses aikido-like moves for some of its disarmament techniques and jujutsu moves for some of its counters.

quote:Certainly _I_ would not be able to beat an Aikido master, as I have only recently earned my first degree a year ago. However, I am confident that I could give a student with similar experience as I a good fight.

I''m inclined to agree, but I think that as time goes on, if both you and your hypothetical aikido practicing opponent continue practicing, it will become less and less true.

quote:This is not because of arrogance, this comes from the knowledge that there are no "Mystical" arts, and anything that my sparring partner does to me can be stopped, someway, somehow. There is no end-all, ultimate move that trumps everything. All it takes is time and perserverence.

Sure there is: convincing your mother to have an abortion before you''re ever born. But that would take some crazy-ass mastery

quote:Once again, I want to point out, THERE ARE NO MYSTICAL ARTS! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS KI/CHI!

Preaching to the choir, here. It''s a useful illusion for some purposes, however. Tell someone to hold their bent arm still, and a single stronger person can pull their arm straight. Tell them to infuse their arm with ki, and it takes a truck to straighten it.

quote:It''s all simple physics (simple, in that it involves Newtonian Physics, not Quantum or otherwise). Even Bruce Lee''s one-inch punch can be explained by physics (pure acceleration power. Master Lee was able to accelerate his fist to the appropriate speed over the short distance of one inch. However, when you study the forces necessary to create such an acceleration, you will realize this is not an impossible or magical task. Even Master Lee admitted everything he did had no basis in the mystical).

If it were impossible, then he wouldn''t be able to do it. If it were magical and he could nevertheless do it consistently, the scientific method would at some point explain it, thus proving it is not magical.

Knowing that it''s explained by physics doesn''t really do anything for you, though. If the physics were inaccurate, the experience would still be the same.

quote:There are only a few basic stances. 1) Facing your opponent 2) Standing sideways to your opponent, and 3) back to your opponent. Anything else is just a feint, just an illusion to try to trick the opponent into thinking something big is coming.

Yeah. So what? Knowing that there are mammals and there are birds doesn''t mean there aren''t platypi.

So tell me this: how does the spread of your feet perpendicular to your opponent affect your ability to move in sparring? To what extent does reducing your profile (i.e. turning to the side to become a smaller target) become a liability? Why do most people have the weight on their back leg when they''re in a side-on stance? In what situations is it a really, really bad idea to have unevenly distributed weight? What stance should you use to thrash an opponent who is below the reach of your arms? What are the advantages and disadvantages of resting your weight on the ball of your foot vs. your heel? How does uneven or treacherous terrain affect your stance and/or movement? How do you move from one stance in one position to another stance in another position without leaving vulnerabilities?

quote:I don''t believe in blocking powerful technique.

Of course not -- you practice Tae Kwon Do.

quote:I much prefer to evade and counter, or even jam attack. With a jam attack you must have fairly fast reflexes. When you see a powerful (and consequently slow) technique coming, you throw your most powerful technique that can land before the incoming attack connects with YOU. In doing this, you throw your opponent off balance. In some cases, this can be my only defense against much larger opponents

I prefer gunting(sp?), which means attacking an attack. If you see a roundhouse, you don''t really block it, although that''s the effect; you punch the shin. (this is one reason for a vertical punch (where your knuckles are in a vertical row instead of a horizontal one). If you are just a little off, you can hurt your hand using a horizontal punch)

quote:In short, fighting is independent of style. ALL striking arts are essentially equivalent, with the exception of the illusion of different stances. All arts use the same basic stances, modifying them to look different.

They modify them for better reasons than that. The northern foot; southern hand observation comes to mind. It''s pretty easy to see in kung fu where the styles assume that it will be difficult to move your feet freely versus being able to move and kick with wild abandon. There are also inherent differences in teaching methods among the striking arts. Jeet kune do comes to mind as an example.

quote:This is the problem with AI fighters, they have no habits, making them almost perfect.

This is why I suggested that the choices be determined for the different characters in the fighting game. And I don''t know what kind of fighting games you''ve been playing, but I haven''t gotten the impression that the fighters have no habits. Just the really tough ones. The indian guy, the spanish guy, and the electric guy from Street Fighter 2 have remarkably different habits, to name a well-known example. If nothing else, the different available combos make for very different styles.

quote:Original post by Flarelocke
So tell me this: how does the spread of your feet perpendicular to your opponent affect your ability to move in sparring?

distance between feet is proportional to stability and inversely proportional to mobility. In other words, wide feet make you harder to knock over but harder for you to move, closer feet make you faster to move but easier to knock over.

quote:
To what extent does reducing your profile (i.e. turning to the side to become a smaller target) become a liability?

Depends on your desired technique. If you use powerful punches, you will tend to face your opponent square. To reduce your profile by turning sideways will slow your rear hand as a weapon. However, if you are kicking, you will want to turn your body sideways. Most powerful kicks are only possible from this sideways stance.

quote: Why do most people have the weight on their back leg when they''re in a side-on stance?

To take the weight off their front leg, giving them much faster kicks with that leg. Also, it helps to reduce vulnerability to sweeps.

quote: In what situations is it a really, really bad idea to have unevenly distributed weight?

having all your weight on your front leg makes you very vulnerable to sweeps. having all your weight on your rear leg makes you vulnerable to blitz technique if you do not use an effective counter attack.

quote: What stance should you use to thrash an opponent who is below the reach of your arms?

I would still use the sideways stance and drop an axe kick down on my opponent. It works, I know, it was done to me during my black belt test.

quote: What are the advantages and disadvantages of resting your weight on the ball of your foot vs. your heel?

I really can''t think of how resting on your heals would be advantageous. It makes you sluggish and unstable. In fact, if you study sport in general, you will find that ANY sport finds no advantage to "digging in your heals".

quote:
How does uneven or treacherous terrain affect your stance and/or movement?

I would think this is obvious. If it is not, it can adversly effect your balance, making kicking inordinantly more difficult. It would also, in my mind, make grappling more difficult, as you have lost the one sure constant of the ground as a point of leverage.

quote: How do you move from one stance in one position to another stance in another position without leaving vulnerabilities?

Generally, I use an attack to switch stances. Of course, if the opponent is out of range, this isn''t necessary. Usually, sidestepping is a good way of changing stance. I would not just switch my feet, I would definitely make the change a part of something else (an attack, an evasion).

What else do you want to know?

I didn''t actually mean for you to answer all those questions. I only asked them rhetorically, as a way to demonstrate that there are considerations that cause significant variations in the stances; there are better reasons for them than just "looking different".

quote:Original post by Flarelocke
For the record, crane and tiger are easy, and relatively similar to tae kwon do. Come back when you''ve fought against someone good at preying mantis or monkey.

I think you everyone should learn chromed Glock style!

Will

I''ll put all of you in a Figure-Four leg lock and make you scream Uncle. Then I''ll stand up and tell you, "To be the Man, you gotta Beat the Man!" "WHOOOOOO!"