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Game design woes..


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#1 Niphty   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 07 June 2000 - 04:36 PM

I see a lot of people on this game design board claiming they know what''s wrong with roleplaying games etc etc.. but not many people are actively attempting to DESIGN a game. That IS what this board is about still.. designing? I mean, i can spout out problems left and right.. but unless you know the route of the problem.. it won''t help. So you should be ASKING, not yelling cause you''re annoyed at said problem. If you want to know why it doesn''t work right, try asking.. you might find out more that way, and you''ll certainly get heard more often. So.. think about the problems in the games and figure out why they''re not working right. Perhaps the software was coded badly. Think about what you would have it do, how you would improve this aspect of the game, and jot it down. Then find out if it''s possible within a few man-years Often, really great ideas can''t be implimented yet. I just picked up a book on creating 3d objects in games. It deals with how the current methods are quickly falling short of the mark, and how to improve the methods to create 3d objects in much less processor time. Right now, most 3d games require a massive video card. The problem with this is that you end up crunching out all those who don''t have a mega-machine. Hardware has adapted to the software, and we now have pixel-pushing video cards. That''s ridiculous, when a simply algorythm change can make a much greater impact! So if you see a problem.. and you want to make it better, first find out why the problem exists perhaps it''s bad coding.. but most likely it was forced to meet design times and the programmers had to take shortcuts. Sometimes it''s a simply lack of hardware (this used to happen a lot, rarely now). Other times the problem might be something more complex. I''m just urging people to take the time to slow down, think about things.. and ask or let us know what you think.. but don''t just criticize, it makes you look like you have no opinion other than "all others are wrong". J

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#2 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 07 June 2000 - 04:59 PM

Game design is not programming. If you want to talk 3d stuff go to one of the other forums available. Design is about actual game rules, and to a lesser extent concerns such as setting.

True most of the people here complain a lot, sometimes with good reason. However keep in mind that this is a forum. Let''s break up people into three categories: people who want to complain, people who have questions, and people who think things are just fine. People in the first two categories are most likely to post.

#3 Landfish   Members   -  Reputation: 288

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Posted 07 June 2000 - 05:32 PM

Niphty, I''m hurt! Actually design something? Are you kidding? You can''t ask me to do that!

Complaining is an integral part of the design process. It''s how we know what to fix. Frankly, if all this forum ever does is show people what sucks through complaining, it''s still done SOMETHING! But I think we''ll be ok as long as some of us... (shameless self promotion...) try to raise some issues and make them work.

It''s certainly not just me doing that, by the way. I can think of many others who have had brilliant ideas... but you have to read between the rants. Every so often a voice of reason appears, and says: "Here''s why..."

And they are the reason I use this site.

This post was brought to you by the letter "Land", and the number "Fish!"

#4 Niphty   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 07 June 2000 - 05:40 PM

Annony, I merely used the 3d thing as an example, reread and try to understand.. or perhaps you can subscribe to an account and actually put weight behind your words


Landfish, I know someone has to complain about things to make people realize it''s a problem.. but when the same person complains about the same thing over and over, or many people about one thing.. it gets redundant. I''d like to have AI in my game which could encompass reality.. but it won''t happen tomorrow I just grow tired of people who whine about something yet when asked to fix it, back out of it and are like "well, i didn''t make it!" of course you didn''t.. but if you''re going to compalin and not have any idea what you DO want, only know what you DON''T want.. then how can we help you?! simple: we can''t design a game if people only tell us "we don''t want that" after it''s already done! ;p Obivously if something''s in there and it''s not to your liking, then it''s prolly you that''s the oddball Obivously they beta tested and SOMEONE liked it.. lol! Just think to when you impliment something and someone else hates it cause it''s now how they envisioned magic should work! ;p That''s why game companies don''t listen anymore, too many people whine about what''s not right.. so they end up just ignoring us and doing whatever they want to do. just my rant..

J

#5 Hase   Members   -  Reputation: 313

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Posted 07 June 2000 - 09:28 PM

YO - slow down!

Right, it is all about designing but I´ve seen a lot of good ideas come from all the complaining. (If i ever do a RPG i have ideas in shiploads..)

And yes, I like to complain too - it´s good for you.

And I DO design too - not programming but as a graphics artist for a lil 2d-shooter project. Nothing as ambitious as a full sized RPG yet but if i keep complaining ....

#6 Niphty   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 08 June 2000 - 02:07 AM

That''s another good point.. almost all the complaining is over one specific misrepresented type of game.. the RPG. Very few "rpg" games actually put you in a good "role" to play. Often you''re simply stuck in a linear plot advancement, which.. while some are done well (fallout) others are horrid (baldur''s gate). What''s the fun of playing a role if you''re pretty muchly just gonna do the same actions regardless of what the player wants to do, in order to beat the game! How many games allow the player to take an evil approach to things? You''re always the super-hero well.. let the people play the super-villan!!
And what about action games, or strategy games, are they already perfect? I personally detest the fact that most arcade/action games have like 20 buttons that you have to press in psuedo-random generated sequences to make the character do some upteen million hit combo. While I was extremely good at Killer Instinct one and two.. i disliked the fact that if some dweeb had screwed up the control because they were flinging it around like a madman not knowing what to do (my cousin did this a lot).. then i couldn''t do a single thing since the joystick was broken. That''s part of arcade game design.. making the game withstand the shock of everyday use. Hell, imagine if your keyboard took that kind of pounding (i''m sure it might occasionally..). Do you think you''d be happy if the spacebar stopped working in a game that used it to fire or do some action? At home you at least have the option of remapping that function to another button.

So yeah, there''s plenty to complain about But RPGs seem to be taking all the flak. We can all agree they suck, but we can''t agree on why or how to fix it. So till then, us designers are just gonna get yelled at by people who''ve never even attempted to do something like this, and therefore have no real right to complain. if you don''t like it, yet aren''t willing to do anything about it.. shut up and sit down and let those of us who care do our jobs ;p

J

#7 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 08 June 2000 - 07:17 AM

>So yeah, there''s plenty to complain about But RPGs seem to be >taking all the flak. We can all agree they suck, but we can''t >agree on why or how to fix it. So till then, us designers are >just gonna get yelled at by people who''ve never even attempted >to do something like this, and therefore have no real right to >complain. if you don''t like it, yet aren''t willing to do >anything about it.. shut up and sit down and let those of us >who care do our jobs ;p

First off, I''m not the previous anonymous poster. Second, I have almost ten years of experience in the industry, I don''t need to get registered to put weight behind my words.

You talk a lot of smack. Maybe you should hit us up with some credentials. Let''s see a design credit, eh? List of shipped titles? Anything?

us desighers? do our jobs? Am I missing something here?

$0.02


#8 Landfish   Members   -  Reputation: 288

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Posted 08 June 2000 - 10:50 AM

Ahhh, niphty''s just a little jealous is all.... =)

Anyway, Niphty, have you realized yet that this post is just complaining too? I mean, it''s exactly what you''re criticizing, but I''m ok with that, because it might help someone realize something important. And that''s the nature of the other complaining posts too.

Meanwhile, there are very few ideas I have seen on this site that couldn''t be implemented, soon if not immediately. Everyone''s magic ideas in Magic Alternatives, all the EXP systems, the pro-goblin plots. Even the pipe dreams need to be given some thought, because we will need to do something like that someday, right?

The only thing I DON''T like to see in the design forum is Lounge issues (Best/worst game, etc.). But even then, where do you draw the line? I even post to the "Awesome Game Idea" posts, because you never know what might be ingenious, given a little nurturing.

Bottom line is, every single person who posts in this forum is interested in game design (''cept Halo 9), whether they dabble or play for keeps. RPGs suck, and when I have solved everything I consider to be a "problem", you bet your ass I''m going to make one. Same goes for every other complainer here, I bet.

If you want to make games, than by default you must want to change the way they are now. If they were perfect, you''d only play them, not make them, right?

This post was brought to you by the letter "Land", and the number "Fish!"

#9 Niphty   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 08 June 2000 - 04:17 PM

"ah, yes.. i''m the anonnymous poster with 50 years of game design.. er.. i mean, 10.. yeah, that''s right.. sorry, computers weren''t running games 50 years ago." Yeah, ok.. you don''t NEED to have a handle to make your words count.. but the rest of us need you to

Landfish, yes.. i''m complaining As you say, it''s how things get done. But i''m complaining cause so many people suggest some really wild stuff, but have no intention of actually carrying it through. How many people here are dead serious about game design as a career? Most people would LIKE to do that.. but i would LIKE to design jet planes and spacecraft.. and faster-than-light travel. It''s a dream for me, though.. I have the mechanical engineering ability of a two year old Yeah, i appreciate people bringing to light that there''s a problem.. but could they do it in a more sensable and peaceful fasion? It seems to me, coming into a board and just shouting "THIS GAME SUCKS" doesn''t seem very friendly to me. However, asking "does anyone else believe this game sucks?" and then explaining WHY you believe it sucks, and seeking the opinion of others.. THAT is a valid way to conduct professional business I know if ANYONE came to me with something like that, I wouldn''t even bother to send them a standard BS reply letter! If they can''t speak like they have a grasp of what exactly they''re mad at, and why they''re mad at it.. it does no real good. "Something is wrong with your game!" Ambiguity my friend That''s what i seek to eliminate. I just wish people would answer "why?" more often, before someone else has to ask them.

J

#10 Landfish   Members   -  Reputation: 288

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Posted 08 June 2000 - 05:03 PM

Alright. =)

#11 Hase   Members   -  Reputation: 313

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Posted 09 June 2000 - 01:48 AM

Yo - Mr. Anonymous 10 years of experience!

Are you actually saying that the only ones who have a right to complain are the ones who (have at least tried) to make it better?
Doesn´t that make your job awfully simple, not having to take criticism anymore?

I complain about lots of stuff- The government, the education system, the weather or worms in my food!
But just because I´m not a member of government, not a teacher, haven´t performed a rain dance in my life and am not the head of a major food company does not mean that I can´t complain!

Besides, you shouldn´t take it personally. I think that a lot of good ideas came from all that complaining. Especially you as a pro (if you´re not another reincarnation of our friend halo9) should welcome the huge amount of ideas that´s to be found here. Of course there´s a lot of crap here too, but I think we can agree that there´s some gold to be found too.
And it shows you what the people think about RPGs. Nobody´s saying you´re to blame, just think about some of the ideas.




And yeah, you are missing something here - when was the last time YOU really cared about a project (apart from shipping date and cash in bank account)?


BTW I´d be glad if you´d register and reply, if that´s not below you.


#12 Cyberdrek   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 09 June 2000 - 02:05 AM

-- Anonymous Poster Said --
First off, I''m not the previous anonymous poster. Second, I have almost ten years of experience in the industry, I don''t need to get registered to put weight behind my words.

You talk a lot of smack. Maybe you should hit us up with some credentials. Let''s see a design credit, eh? List of shipped titles? Anything?

us desighers? do our jobs? Am I missing something here?

$0.02


-----------------------------

Well, I have news for you... Some of us have been part of the game industry for as long as you and some even more and some not. Now, to clarify one thing, being in the industry for 10 years doesn''t mean that you know shit, even after 10 years you can still make a bad design decision and it happened to alot of good game designers I know. You ask for credentials, can you state some yourself of the supposed games you have worked on??? I didn''t see anything like that from you. You say that you designers do your job, well, I have one thing to say about it, you designers are the reasons why most of programmers make sacrifices when coding a game( And yes, I''m a programmer ). Anyhow, get your facts straighten up.




Cyberdrek
Headhunter Soft
DLC Multimedia
Two Guys Soft

#13 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 09 June 2000 - 03:24 PM

OK, I started right out of college at Spectrum Holobyte. That was in ''90. I worked a little on a tetris knock-off designed by Alexei Pajitnov and a little on Falcon 3.0.

Since then I''ve worked on lots of things for lots of companies.

But you guys don''t care about that. It''s been pointed out that seniority != wisdom. That''s true enough. All I have to say is that actions speak louder than words.

Show me don''t tell me.

And don''t even talk to me about being a mercenary bastard. I gave over two years of my life to a failed startup. I worked like a dog for less than nothing. I''ve done my time, I''ve paid my dues. Why? Because I cared deeply about the project. Don''t even go there.

$0.02


#14 AtypicalAlex   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 09 June 2000 - 03:53 PM

Oh I see, so just because you''ve "paid your dues" you have the right to tell others what to say? You think that only you have the right to complain? Well, maybe that''s because you''ve had 10 years of unsuccessful business ... if that were me I''d have a lot to complain about, too...

You have no right to tell someone what they can bitch about, it''s a free country. And hiding behind and Anonymous name doesn''t help you any, either. Oh, yeah, and we STILL haven''t heard a single one of your credits, only that you''ve "worked on a lot of things for a lot of companies." For all we know you were some worthless temp who couldn''t keep a job!

------------------------------
Changing the face of adventure gaming...
Atypical Interactive

#15 Landfish   Members   -  Reputation: 288

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Posted 10 June 2000 - 08:59 AM

Right, this may sound a little weird coming from me, but let''s lay off him. He''s not being 1/4 of the prick Halo 9 was, and he may just know what he''s talking about. Kindof. But either way, it is the people who doubt you who are the source of your glory, right?

When I change the world, I won''t even laugh at the ones who doubted me, because I know they''ll all be thinking, "Damn, the little bastard was right all along. Oh well, my bad." Being right is reward enough.

Um. Yeah. Sorry.

This post was brought to you by the letter "Land", and the number "Fish!"

#16 Voodoo4   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 10 June 2000 - 09:10 AM

Really,where is this Halo9?
I''ve never seen him again on GDNet after all the flaming he took!
What a prick actually!
Voodoo4

#17 Niphty   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 10 June 2000 - 09:29 AM

I agree with landfish here.. this guy has just merely insinuated things, if you ignore it.. it''ll leave. That''s why i only made one little mocking paragraph about em

As far as things go.. Some people have tried and failed, and some have tried and succeeded. It sounds to me like the Anonny guy is just a bit peeved that he didn''t succeed dispite all his efforts. Unfortunately.. a project can''t survive on one man''s will alone. But that doesn''t mean you hafta get burnt about it.. and be all hateful towards those of us wishing to make a difference. Perhaps he''s doing this sorta as a way to discourage us from attempting, since we might end up like him. We all know the risks, i believe.

I also agree that i love skeptics like Landfish does. They provide motivation 9/10 times. They make you hate them, and envision them as the embodiment of those who''re against you, and that oft makes you work like mad And when this happens, you''ll find you get things done. Sometimes it''s even good to be your own skeptic when everyone around you is positive you can do it. We like struggle and strife, and we need to feed on it a lot of the time. It''s energy to prove them wrong.. And it''s exhilirating.. hehehe.

Seriously though.. if you haven''t stopped to think about what failure might mean.. then do so now. Heed the warnings and go back before it''s too late. Once you take that road to designing seriously.. you might never want to go back.. even if you''re broke and down. We''re artists in our own way... writers.. weavers of a land which people will be immersed in. Our books have graphics and sounds and are capable of pulling a reader so deep into the plot.. they may obsess or loose sleep over it. They will love and hate you for it. But most of all.. they will be able to interact in our books. We must plan for all the interactions they might want or desire.. and we must make those possibilities. Too few possibilities, and you had better have a very good plot that keeps people moving the right way. Too many possibilities and you lose those with ADD
Balance is the key.. and here we all sit, huddled around a small fire, talking and exchanging stories, ideas, dreams. And somewhere in the mess, one of us might be really successful years from now. I hope they never forget where they came from.. here, with us.. now

J

#18 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 10 June 2000 - 09:34 AM

I believe it was Niphty who implied that people who don''t design games should not complain. It was not the Anonymous Poster.

#19 Landfish   Members   -  Reputation: 288

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Posted 10 June 2000 - 09:59 AM

It''s funny how Halo 9''s being an asshole has brought us all together. Niphty, the post was very deep, and I appreciate that. But also cannot forget that we are only makig video games here. To make them more than that is foolish (IMO). What we need to do is question: "What is a video game worth?
Now that changes EVERYTHING!

This post was brought to you by the letter "Land", and the number "Fish!"

#20 Paul Cunningham   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 19 June 2000 - 03:19 PM

quote:
Original post by Niphty



As far as things go.. Some people have tried and failed, and some have tried and succeeded. It sounds to me like the Anonny guy is just a bit peeved that he didn''t succeed dispite all his efforts. Unfortunately.. a project can''t survive on one man''s will alone. But that doesn''t mean you hafta get burnt about it.. and be all hateful towards those of us wishing to make a difference. Perhaps he''s doing this sorta as a way to discourage us from attempting, since we might end up like him. We all know the risks, i believe.



that reminds me of the saying, "sometimes the biggest risk in life is not taking a risk"

- only a fool does not question one''s doubts -




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