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[java] I am sick and tired of prejudism!


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#21 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 02:07 AM

I just read the article and everyone''s comments and I think I need to say something. Seeing as how this is a Java forum, I''m probably wasting my time, but here it goes.

The article mentions several "advantages" java has over C++:

>> No need to remember to deallocate data - so there are no memory leaks.<<

Garbage collection can be done in C++. Write garbage collection routines once and then forget about it. However, a good programmer should be able to remember to deallocate memory.

>>A library of easy-to-use objects, such as strings, lists, and queues. C++ has STL but STL is not integrated well with most libraries so C-style strings are still needed a lot.<<

C++ is now standardized. The STL implementations will only continue to get better and faster and more programmers will use it. C-style strings are hardly needed unless you''re doing a lot of string manipulation at speed critical times... but how often is that?

>>Forget all about pointers. Java does not support them. In fact, Java uses protected references so you cannot make references to illegal data<<

Why would you want to forget about pointers? Sure, they can be dangerous if you don''t know how to use them, but they are very powerful and very useful.

>>Java is a much simpler language. C++ is getting bigger and bigger and strange details keeps popping up that I never cared about. Java has a very clean syntax and no strange details. <<

This argument holds absolutely *no* weight because you failed to mention what "strange" details you are referring to. Please tell us.

>>I have read articles boasting about productivity gains of about 40% by using Java over C++. I am not sure about these numbers, but it true that Java increases your productiveness both by increasing code writing speed but also by reducing the number of bugs.<<

Bugs occur in every language. So far, the only thing Java has going for it is its cross platform compatibility, and garbage collection. Both can be done in C++ easily (and you get the speed that comes with C++).

Real speed in development comes with code reuse. This is something that the game industry needs to realize... Stop remaking the graphics engine for every game you make!


Java is still in its infancy. Perhaps in years to come Java will become more suited for game development than other languages and I will make the transfer. However, C++ has so much going for it, so that day is far off in the distance.


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#22 t2sherm   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 02:42 AM

I thought that article was pretty good. I heard something about Java 2. I was wondering if anyone knew what it is, and how it is different from regular Java?

t2sherm ô¿ô

#23 kill   Members   -  Reputation: 146

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 02:57 AM

What r u guys arguing about? Everything is good for its purpose. Java, C and C++ have completely different purposes. Even C and C++ are completely different in a sense that the architecture of your applications is nowhere near the same. Java is mostly good for web-based application, server side web application, or truly protable GUI applications. There are other uses, but writing games is not one of them. C++ on the other hand sucks at some things where Java kicks ass, but C++ surves its purpose for games way better then Java.

I am not prejudiced. The game I''m working on now, I wrote part of the server on Java, because it seemed to be a good solution. But writing games on Java just because "Java is superior", or because u''re a fanatic is simply stupid.

#24 baskuenen   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 08:12 AM

I like DOS batch files and Quick BASIC. I use it all the time.
Script files are also great, but nothing''s better than the FTP prompt. At the moment I''m using this for pentium optimizing my initialization procs.
I''m planning on using Perl for supporting multiple 3D gfx accellerators, when using my SQL optimized pahtfinding.
I used to do animations with Cobol, but framerate was too high...





#25 ManaSink   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 08:20 AM

quote:
Original post by t2sherm

I thought that article was pretty good. I heard something about Java 2. I was wondering if anyone knew what it is, and how it is different from regular Java?

t2sherm ô¿ô



Java2 is Sun''s brand name for their current implementation of java. It started with version 1.2.2 and includes the newest version of java, 1.3. Yes, 1.3 *is* Java2. It confused the hell out of me until I thought about what my company''s marketing dept. does on a daily basis (shudder).

So, as far as I know:
Java2 == Sun''s JDK/JRE v. 1.2 through JDK/JRE v. 1.3

ManaSink

#26 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696

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Posted 23 June 2000 - 06:54 AM

quote:
Original quote from the article

If a game is written in Java you could probably cut of half a year which would cut production costs and bring the game onto an earlier market, which means that it will sell better.



That sounds like quite a stretch.

Why does everyone assume that developing in Java is so much quicker than developing in C++? I''m perfectly productive in C++. Being experienced in it, I know the pitfalls and I know how to avoid them. Java is a fine langauge, but it''s irritating how arrogant people get about how much more productive it is.

Use whatever you like, but don''t complain about how bad C++ users attitudes are when you seem to have just as bad an attitude.

--TheGoop

#27 Jerry Lynn   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 23 June 2000 - 08:25 AM

You seem to be confusing your personal productivity in creating code with the productivity of the entire development process (including debugging and testing with the involvement of more than one developer). The reason so many of us take the position that Java is many times more productive as a development platform than C++ is because it has been proven in independent studies...

One such article is here…

http://java.sun.com/features/1998/07/efficiency.html

If you research I am sure you will find many more.


#28 Houdini   Members   -  Reputation: 266

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Posted 23 June 2000 - 08:41 AM

Well, I can write a program in Visual Basic faster than Java or C++, but that doesn''t necessarly mean the programming language is better. It COULD be said (not by me tho ) that C++ is generally intended more for experts, and it takes much longer for novices/intermediates to write/debug C++ software, while Java is written for novices/intermediates so it is easier for them produce software. Now, I am NOT saying this is the case, just playing devil''s advicate. Personally, I use C++ for my applications/games, but I couldn''t say which programming language is better (and I''m sure they both have their pluses/minuses) because I haven''t used very much Java. I must say that I''m somewhat turned off by the lack of pointers in Java. Pointers have SO many uses I couldn''t even begin to imagine writing a program without them. I will give Java users one point tho, the lack of a C++ string class is a pain.


#29 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 23 June 2000 - 10:03 AM

that''s just because you already know pointers. I''ve never used them and quite simply I can''t imagine the need for them. Some C++ stuff though I would like, that template thing sounds good and multiple inheritance would be nice if implemented correctly. Though living without gabage collection and some of the messy systax seems impossible. Oh well I guess I''m going to have to learn C++... too bad. Maybe this C# thing will liberate us from the weaknesses of java and C++. Too bad someone else didn''t come out with the same thing last year. I still think C* would be cooler as a name. Maybe someday I''ll make my own language with java syntax and the power of C++ and I''ll just call it D. We''ve been on C long enough.

#30 ImmaGNUman   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 23 June 2000 - 10:14 AM

Seems to me that the present C++ programmers are whining about the same thing C programmers whined about when C++ came to be. The tables have turned and now Java is in style. So if you are arguing speed, etc. you may be just reiterating arguements which went against C++ and now using it for it. Seems like that to me.

-----------------------------

A wise man once said "A person with half a clue is more dangerous than a person with or without one."

Edited by - ImmaGNUman on June 23, 2000 5:22:54 PM

#31 ImmaGNUman   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 23 June 2000 - 10:24 AM

Dear My Anonymous:

C# will probably be just a bad attempt of microsoft (using musical names for some strange reason) to make a Java competitor. I for one will not support it, because MS will find a way, they always do. By the way, don't call it D, call it P, in honor of BCPL, which is what they though C++ would be called.

-----------------------------

A wise man once said "A person with half a clue is more dangerous than a person with or without one."

Edited by - ImmaGNUman on June 23, 2000 5:25:58 PM

#32 Icculus   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 24 June 2000 - 09:32 PM

To Houdini and others who heard that Java doesn''t have pointers, Java has pointers. If you refrence any Object(class) you use a pointer naturally. It''s just it''s invisible to you. If you create a double,float,int,char,byte of other primitive types it declares the memory right there. Also when you pass a object into a function it is automatically passed by refrence(as in a pointer is passed not a copy of the whole thing), if you pass a primitive type it is passed by value.

Another handy thing you can do with pointers in Java is make a pointer to Object by writing Object o; Now o can point to anything it wants to except primitive types. Or have a method that accepts an Object and that Object can be anything. Just wanted to point out that Java can do it all. If you are having difficulty porting a program with pointers over to Java, just ask as there''s definately a way.

I remember doing programs demonstrating polymorphism and inheiritance in C++ class, and having so many pointers and
pointer related things going on that the program would litterally be unreadable to a novice and a pain even for a expert(there were * all over the pages). In Java this kind of stuff is perfectly readable, easy to write, less buggy,no cleanup, but of course the downfall is that when someone looks at your code it
will be so apparent what you are doing they won''t think your a genius.

#33 felonius   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 25 June 2000 - 02:37 AM

Thank you all for your comments. Please post more if you can.

The comment by an anonymous poster on page 1 decerves immediate feedback.

The poster argues that Java development not really is faster than C++ development and that some of my "advantages" not are weel-founded. I have therefore extected the article with a link to anotehr page were readers can get a more in-depth discussion of what I mean. If you are the anonymous poster I would be very pleased to see your comments on this.

It can be found here:
http://www.marner.dk/articles/WhyJavaCanBeUsedForGames/advantages.htm

There has also been some discussion in this topic on whether Java increases developer productivity. And have therefore added a list of references accessible from the article that explains this in detail.

It can be found here:
http://www.marner.dk/articles/WhyJavaCanBeUsedForGames/CppJava.htm

I have also modified the article a few places to take into account some of the comments in this topic.

Jacob Marner






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