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no-one can create ai


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#1 yumi_cheeseman   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 02 July 2003 - 11:50 PM

its funny how we in this forum have classified ai. at the moment probably noone here has created a real ai. one that actually learns and can be taught how to respond like a human. everyone here classidies ai as action and response. game ai are made to respond to an action. such as if the bot detects the human bot then attacks human. this is why playing games such as half life and unreal are so boring against bots. all that a harder bot does is be more accurate. a bot doesn''t figure out ur strategy or weakness and implement it in the next round does it. a human can. a human has the ability to far outpla a bot. this is because of the humans ability to analyse the other players and take advantage say by hiding in an alleyway. this is why you are not taking about real ai

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#2 fup   Members   -  Reputation: 463

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 12:01 AM

Amen brother. Yo'' sure is one insightful kinda guy.

My Website: ai-junkie.com | My Book: AI Techniques for Game Programming

#3 Willm   Members   -  Reputation: 138

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 12:42 AM

We sure have created artificial intelligence. They keyword here is ''artificial''. If you create something that appears to have some sort of intelligence it can be described as AI. Besides are you sure that the human mind isn''t purely mechanistic?

#4 Zephyrox   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 01:29 AM

The discussion here is about whats intelligence and whats not, and i dont belive anyone has an answer for that. Is a chess computer smart or intelligent? probobly not, it only has simple mathmatical rules to follow.
You cant tell if you playing against a computer or a human if your playing chess and cant see the opponent. So wouldn´t that be "real" AI?

#5 IADaveMark   Moderators   -  Reputation: 2405

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 02:02 AM

Learning is not a required component of intelligence. (My brother is a prime example.) A creature can be intelligent and respond to its surroundings through genetics and instinct - i.e. its "programming".

Dave Mark - President and Lead Designer
Intrinsic Algorithm -
"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"

#6 botman   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 02:44 AM

Real AI knows how to capitalize the words at the beginning of a sentence!

botman

#7 IADaveMark   Moderators   -  Reputation: 2405

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 05:47 AM

Real AI often capitalizes a message board ID as if it were a proper noun.

Dave Mark - President and Lead Designer
Intrinsic Algorithm -
"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"

#8 gillan   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 05:59 AM

I think Dr Turing already rendered this argument a moot point. AI just rolls of the tounge easier than ''programs with a list of causes and effects''

#9 cowsarenotevil   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2009

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 06:11 AM

Our brains simply respond to stimuli. When we think about something for a long time, we''re just using a lot of clock cycles. It''s still response to a stimulus.

#10 Timkin   Members   -  Reputation: 864

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 06:09 PM

quote:
Original post by yumi_cheeseman
at the moment probably noone here has created a real ai.



Actually I have... she's two month old and is already displaying some of the attributes of an intelligent, concious agent. She's definitely artificial in that my wife and I made her... I'm guessing that she'll be ready for the Turing test after a few more years of training.


As to that other sort of artificial intelligence... the sort imbued into computers... before you go and denounce what people are doing, why don't you define what you mean by 'real AI' and then offer people the opportunity to discuss whether it is possible to create such a thing, rather than just tell us that we cannot.

Timkin

[edited by - Timkin on July 4, 2003 1:09:50 AM]

#11 JD   Members   -  Reputation: 208

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 07:40 PM

The biggest problem I think for ai is going to be the learning. We learned thru theories/experiments/failures. How you''re going to duplicate this in a computer is a tough question. If the ai can''t validate its theories then it won''t learn and build upon existing knowledge. Unless there is another learning process I''m unaware of. I think the ai needs a context in which it lives and interacts with as I don''t think it can live in a vacuum. For us, the environment is the context and survival is the goal.

#12 MikeD   Members   -  Reputation: 158

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 10:47 PM

Fox: I would say that learning or, more generally, adaptation, is the decisive metric for defining real intelligence. It''s the difference between an autonomous agent and an automoton. If you do not adapt due to your environment you are merely an automoton following a predefined set of rules (however your brain might work), if you adapt to the environment (even if it is maladaption to some degree) then you are autonomous and you dynamically adjust your rule set based on your structural coupling to that environment (your structural coupling defining the domain of perturbations you and your environment can undergo due to interactions with each other). I''m using somewhat esoteric language here, so anyone can ask what the Hell I mean by it
By adaptation I mean everything that changes in you by interaction with your environment, even gaining memories, changing gut instincts and other low level intelligence stuff.

I think adaptation is the essential difference that denotes an important step up in the kind of intelligence an agent has. Consider it the difference between being able to regurgitate facts to get a high IQ (expressing a rules set) vs. being able to learn it in the first place and supply solutions to novel problems.

All IMHO of course

Mike

#13 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 08:38 AM

Hello
I have read this thread with interest. It is a field I have dealt with in my degree for four years. Last year I wrote some of my thoughts no the matter down in an essay. It can be found at

http://www.richardjones.info/home/interests_ac_intel.html

I hope that it is constructive in some of what it says

Richard

#14 RenderTarget   Members   -  Reputation: 398

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 10:52 AM

The moment an AI technique is mastered, it''s no longer AI, but just another algorithm. But, Yumi, you''re displaying a lack of knowledge: Modern AI game players are more ''intelligent'' than just being more accurate with their weapons. Halo bots will take effective cover, Unreal bots will predict where you''re going to be and intercept you (it''s a little freaky). These techniques take CPU time and research, and both are continually increasing.

In fact, a lot of games pare down the accuracy of bots to make them seem more human, and use better learning and prediction to be more difficult.

AI isn''t just about acting like a human, which is only one model of intellect. It''s about responding with prediction and learning. It''s getting better, not staying the same.

I like pie.

#15 yumi_cheeseman   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 07:37 PM

Fox: I would say that learning or, more generally, adaptation, is the decisive metric for defining real intelligence.

i agree here.

and render target, they are not intelligent. they just are told to find the way you have gone. they are not actually changing

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as you can see i ramble, but at least i have my own opinion
have a nice day

#16 darkawakenings   Members   -  Reputation: 127

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Posted 06 July 2003 - 01:38 PM

IMHO, the brain is entirely mechanical. I really don''t see any way that it could be anything but. I''m not going to delve into controversial topics such as religion, but my previous statement seems to be the truth.

#17 MikeD   Members   -  Reputation: 158

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Posted 06 July 2003 - 10:18 PM

Actually darkawakenings, it''s electrobiochemical, but if you meant it''s deterministic and suffers under the laws of physics like everything else, then, yes, it does. If then you mean to say that it is possible to create AI as it has been created in the past and evolution is not a unique mechanism with which to create intelligence I would say I generally agree (though I can''t say for certain and have some pragmatic and theoretical reservations). If you were going to say that we (i.e. humans) could create AI (and by this I mean real AI with understanding, not just intelligent behaviour, which we''ve already created), by default, just because it''s possible, I would say that is no certainty and I would like to hear your reasons.

Mike

#18 TfpSly   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 12:32 AM

> Is a chess computer smart or intelligent?
No, as it cannot learn how to play chess, or how to improve itself.

> But, Yumi, you''re displaying a lack of knowledge: Modern AI game players are
> more ''intelligent'' than just being more accurate with their weapons.
> Halo bots will take effective cover, Unreal bots will predict where
> you''re going to be and intercept you (it''s a little freaky)

Actually there is one game where some kind of AI learned how to improve itself and how to beat you.
It was a RTS called Conflict Zone.
Well, it wasn''t intelligent, it was just using weights to know what should be done next, ie: if it seems like the human player likes doing armies of tanks, then increase the weight of planes and helicopters, and so on.
Still, that was the best ai ever seen in a rts game I think - but other points - rendering, user interface, etc...- sucked too much and the game was a flop

#19 TerranFury   Members   -  Reputation: 142

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 02:19 PM

Whenever the AI community solves a problem, the solution ceases to be AI in the public imagination; it''s just another computer program. So AI researchers who succeed are never really credited with furthering AI researchers; they just invented another algorithm. That doesn''t mean that, in reality, it''s not AI of a sort. We just don''t see it that way.

As for strong AI, who cares? That''ll happen around the same time we invent personal teleporters, drive around flying cars, and vacation on the moon. Let ''em try though. It''s always healthy to have someone working for the impossible; they figure out useful stuff in the process.

#20 Flarelocke   Members   -  Reputation: 410

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 05:41 PM

The reason AI becomes just a computer algoirthm once it''s developed is that we all have the same vague idea of what intelligence is, and it''s a lot more than a computer vision algorithm, although that''s likely part of it.

If you grow an eyeball from a human stem cell, you wouldn''t say that you cloned a human, would you?




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