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Role Playing?! Bah!


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#1 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696

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Posted 18 June 2000 - 01:37 PM

I propose that CRPGs should now be called Strategic Story-driven Statistical Management Games (SSDSMG). Why? Because IMO giving them the label of "Role-Playing" games is a complete fallacy. You see, there isn't really much role playing going on. But there is roleplaying! Your playing the role of a guy, right?! Well, you play a role in just about every game. So if you judge by that then you could call any game a "roleplaying" game. So then what defines an RPG? IMO it's that you define your character's personality through actions, statements, and whatnot. Choosing a skill set isn't really true roleplaying, IMHO -- it just means that you chose to be stronger in some areas than you are in others. So, getting to the point, IMO we should throw away the misconception that stat juggling is "role-playing" and work on allowing the player real choices in games (especially MMORPG's). ------------------------------------------------------- Working on bringing to life the worlds first 4D engine! Edited by - TheGoop on 6/18/00 7:40:13 PM

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#2 SonicSilcion   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 18 June 2000 - 01:55 PM

You forgor Linear. Just squeeze it between Strategic and Story.

#3 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

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Posted 18 June 2000 - 01:57 PM

I couldn't agree more, TheGoop. The term RPG is misconceived quite a lot these days. Choices are the most important part IMO. You cannot roleplay (at least not interactively) without them. It's just as important in single-player RPGs too.

Edited by - Nazrix on June 18, 2000 8:58:20 PM

#4 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

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Posted 18 June 2000 - 01:59 PM

Oh no...
We cannot use the Linear word with that Landfish guy around. He''ll have a fit!


#5 Outworlder   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 18 June 2000 - 02:02 PM

You got a point... almost. Can''t we roleplay if we want in UO?

Gaiomard Dragon
-===(UDIC)===-

#6 Poltras   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 18 June 2000 - 02:05 PM

You''re right on that... But I''m gonna share my opinion on that (ok you don''t need it...).



(( Everything after this point is not absolute but relative to my poor self... no I''m not on crack ))

The bad truth is, you won''t be able to describe RPG or RPG-style by a definition. It''s undefined and not really definable.
By ethimology, a RolePlaying Game would be a game where you play a role. That seems obvious, but here goes the trouble: you can''t say that all games are RPG since you play the role of someone (Say a marine in Doom), somewhere (Mars) with some story ("oh no! they try to invade the earth") and some coolness (what''s cooler than a shotgun in Doom).
Although it may seem obvious that you are NOT playing a RPG with Doom[1], you are pretty sure you play a role[2]. So that definition is not viable. Really?

Another stupid example[3] is theater. I don''t know if you concider the characters on the scene roleplaying, but I do. But what differences are there between Doom and Theater[4]? Mmmh... That''s where I''m going.

In my opinion, roleplaying games are a genre of games. What makes the difference between RPG and stupid first-person shooter[5] is the energy put by the team on different parts of the game. I mean that in a RPG more time is used to get a good story, a good stat systems and some interaction between players. The first thing we can see in doom is the lack of stats and interaction[6]. That what makes a true RPG-genre game.
Therefore, I think that Doom is a roleplay game (and every game too) but is not in the Genre of.



So no need to call something SSDSMG or even worse (Where did you get the name, anyway?), I just propose that from now on we make a distinction between RPG-genre games and other genre by checking the way the game is aiming at.

But that''s already done... So we don''t need to change the world.


[1] Discussable, but I think I should win on that.
[2] For some social purpose, I won''t go as far as stating you play a role when you get up from bed, but some jerks I know do and that really suck.
[3] I would go on Doom II, but that''d only prove my lack of imagination.
[4] Please, don''t tell me they don''t have RocketLauncher and shouting everywhere killing trolls and mechanics spider, I would be disappointed.
[5] Rest are dead.
[6] I kill you, you kill me.

Programming is:
A.The art of debugging a blank sheet of paper (or an empty file).
B.A pastime similar to banging one's head against a wall, but with fewer opportunities for reward.
C.The most fun you can have with your clothes on (although clothes are not mandatory).


#7 fuzzyai   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 18 June 2000 - 02:16 PM

i think a good measure of whether a game is an rpg or not is to compare it to good old pen and paper rpgs.. and i haven''t seen any that can stand up to that comparison. with pen and paper, you can do practically anything you can think of. with a video game, that''s simply not possible. so for many "rpgs" the closest thing you get to roleplaying is deciding whether to say sentence A, B, C, or D...

#8 Ingenu   Members   -  Reputation: 808

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Posted 18 June 2000 - 09:47 PM

I''m playing (as a DM) pen & paper RPG since years...
Players are free but not as much as they think about the story, about the way to pass a given problem they are nearly totally free.

The problem is that in pen & paper RPG you got a human being with a clue and much knowledge in front of you that will find a good way to use your asumptions and thinking about what the story is to enhanced the gameplay experience, while a clueless computer can''t.

Designing a RPG I''m trying to program all the tricks I use in RPG, but the most famous and best tricks can''t be programmed.
The computer simply can''t know when you''re thrilling, what character you want to see again, which other character you hate...
It cannot know ''who'' you are and change the stryline to fit your desires while a DM can.

But the computer can let you choose you''re roll and encure as a MD that you''re playing it well.
The problem is that if you want to change, the computer will be in troubles.

MMORPG in which you play a role ??
I don''t think there''s any available, you rather are just an ever killing ever improving being with no need to eat, to drink or whatever the designer feel was not good for gameplay...

Any people in here having played pen & paper RPG that wasn''t in a desert without water or find himself in trouble cause he lost his food ?
And the character you met that helped you, didn''t you find him a great guy and wrote his name down to your character sheet in the ''FRIENDS'' column ?

Too many missing features, not enough freedomn, no story or a linear one... What ever the game they simply can''t be like pen & paper RPG.

Maybe Computer RPG must be defined as a special RPG genre ?
Any definition for CRPG ?

I propose : A game in which your goal is to go follow a story, to enhanced your character''s abilities, to kill the bad guys, and to solve puzzles.

-* Sounds, music and story makes the difference between good and great games *-

#9 MikeD   Members   -  Reputation: 158

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Posted 18 June 2000 - 11:31 PM

What about Vampire the Masquerade?

I''ve been a fan of the pen ''n'' paper game for years and I''m anxiously awaiting the computer version.

Wasn''t that meant to be more of a roleplaying game in the traditional sense?

Has anybody here played it?

Mike

#10 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

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Posted 19 June 2000 - 02:47 AM

Granted Computer RPGs will never offer the freedom of pen ''n paper. I think one thing that could offer a lot of non-linearity is instead of some guy coming up to the player and offering him a quest of some sort, let the player seek out the adventures most of the time. The game working off the player''s curiosity or vengence or seek for power or money, lets the player choose the types of situations to encounter.

#11 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696

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Posted 19 June 2000 - 03:40 AM

Odd, there hasn't been a landfish post yet. Perhaps this will bring him here:



(sorry, I just can't resist posting that picture )

Anyway, in response to some points made:

quote:

You forgor Linear. Just squeeze it between Strategic and Story.



Darn't, your right! SLSDSMG (try to pronounce that! )

quote:

In my opinion, roleplaying games are a genre of games. What makes the difference between RPG and stupid first-person shooter[5] is the energy put by the team on different parts of the game. I mean that in a RPG more time is used to get a good story, a good stat systems and some interaction between players. The first thing we can see in doom is the lack of stats and interaction[6]. That what makes a true RPG-genre game.



That's where I disagree. A RPG isn't about stat's IMHO, it's about developing a character through actions, choices, etc. In doom, you never mold the characters personality. The Doom marine is just that: the Doom marine.

I guess that means that for the kind of RPG i'm thinking of you would need somewhat non-linear plots (similiar to Fallout). But I think it's doable.

quote:

MMORPG in which you play a role ??
I don't think there's any available, you rather are just an ever killing ever improving being with no need to eat, to drink or whatever the designer feel was not good for gameplay...



Well, that's what I hate about MMORPG's. There is quite a potential for roleplaying, but it seems that were still sticking with outdated and out-of-place systems.

-------------------------------------------------------
Working on bringing to life the worlds first 4D engine!

Edited by - TheGoop on June 19, 2000 10:41:29 AM

#12 Joviex   Members   -  Reputation: 241

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Posted 19 June 2000 - 05:08 AM

quote:
Original post by MikeD

What about Vampire the Masquerade?

I''ve been a fan of the pen ''n'' paper game for years and I''m anxiously awaiting the computer version.

Wasn''t that meant to be more of a roleplaying game in the traditional sense?

Has anybody here played it?

Mike


yes indeedy. Have had it since Gold release day 1. It is awesome. Am in the process of making some mods for it already. The regular storyline (single play) was excellent. The fact that you can ST (Stoyrytell) your own adventures makes it the single best RPG I have ever owned.



"Five passengers set sail that day, for a three hour tour, a three hour tour...."

#13 Paul Cunningham   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 19 June 2000 - 03:52 PM

Let''s kill the term RPG and make the term CDG. CDG = Character Development Games?

It sounds like the only way to go to me.

Either way, the term RPG will become out dated/yes?

#14 Landfish   Members   -  Reputation: 288

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Posted 19 June 2000 - 07:24 PM

(the long absentee Landfish returns...)

Y''know my gripe about this one already. The goop gets a point in my book. No, two points... because I was about to start this post on my own, and he beat me to it.

The main reason CRPGs are not role-playing games is because playing a role sometimes requires you to do something that would be detrimental or inconsequential to the advancement of the character, simply to fufill the role. In essence, the point of a true RPG is simply to play the role, it''s pure escapism. By this logic, most people''s D&D campaiges are also not RPGs, but really kind of crazy board games. AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! (I play shadowrun, the biggest number cruncher of them all...=)

Trying to change the name is a little misguided. Unless you can find a REALLY snappy one. But otherwise, it''s like trying to change "comic book", into "graphic novel." You just sound like you want to be smarter than you are. CDG sounds good, but I don''t like the mood it carries. I suggest we steer this post towards title ideas. If there''s a really good one, we can all use it!

#15 Paul Cunningham   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 19 June 2000 - 07:57 PM

quote:

The main reason CRPGs are not role-playing games is because playing a role sometimes requires you to do something that would be detrimental or inconsequential to the advancement of the character, simply to fufill the role. In essence, the point of a true RPG is simply to play the role, it''s pure escapism. By this logic, most people''s D&D campaiges are also not RPGs, but really kind of crazy board games. AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! (I play shadowrun, the biggest number cruncher of them all...=)



Going from my pen and paper days where i sometimes played the character or DM/GM i found that it was quite hard to get people to "role" play. After some thought i realised the core of the problem stems from the individual players. What i''m saying is that people don''t know what their character is. One really has to sit down and think about their characters [personality] in order to role play. Maybe it would help in CRPG''s if there was a guiding hand to help player understand their characters personality.

quote:

Trying to change the name is a little misguided. Unless you can find a REALLY snappy one. But otherwise, it''s like trying to change "comic book", into "graphic novel." You just sound like you want to be smarter than you are. CDG sounds good, but I don''t like the mood it carries. I suggest we steer this post towards title ideas. If there''s a really good one, we can all use it!


I can understand what you mean by "mood it carries". In retrospective i can see that it would probably solve little. But i''ve got to say that i hate all these new terms like CRPG, MMOWHATEVER, BLABLA. Soon, we''ll have to have a dictionary just to understand what someones written in an email on the topic. It''s ridiculas! Movies don''t have this problem, we shouldn''t either.




#16 Landfish   Members   -  Reputation: 288

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Posted 19 June 2000 - 09:47 PM

Movies don''t, but music sure does. Listen to grind-core, ever? Or how about meth-core? Dark wave? Trip hop? Neo revisionist techno industrial retro punk folk? I agree with you. Another title will solve nothing. But the misnomer is pretty annoying...

Thought of the day. Remove "Linear" from your dirty word dictionary. If it weren''t for linearity, nothing would make sense. And every interactive story is linear in retrospect.

#17 Ingenu   Members   -  Reputation: 808

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Posted 20 June 2000 - 01:23 AM

Landfish :
It''s like telling that we are all following our destiny.

If I''m from the future it''s true, cause I know what you will do, but his my life really written somewhere or is it just the temporal ranger vision ?

What people mean by ''linear'' is that you have to do things in an order and you can''t do otherwise, you have no choices.

I think that instead of linear story we must use : "set story game" or "single storyline game".



-* So many things to do, so few time to spend *-

#18 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696

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Posted 20 June 2000 - 03:59 AM

Just to clarify something: I wasn''t seriously suggesting that we rename RPGs to SLSDSMGs, I just added that to illustrate what I think the games truly are . Nobody would ever remember that acronym, anyway (I know I had to look at my previous post to find it, and I came up with the damn thing! )

In fact, trying to rename a genre would be utterly impossible IMO. People are too set in their ways. And besides, the gaming press is already unable to figure out which genre a game fits into, anyway .

I''m simply saying that we as game designers need to realize what were actually making.

--TheGoop

#19 Landfish   Members   -  Reputation: 288

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Posted 20 June 2000 - 09:59 AM

DAMN STRAIGHT!

#20 Paul Cunningham   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 07:39 PM

"One that does not change ceases to exist"
or
"Sometimes it''s better to divide than grow"

I can''t see why genres are elusive to the forces or nature. After all, they apply to us and we are a mere channel of nature.

So genre''s should change accordingly to the contents that they bear.

I disagree that:

quote:

I''m simply saying that we as game designers need to realize what were actually making.

--TheGoop



I think we don''t have to realise what "we''re actually making" but we do have to realise what "we made". That''s why we need genre''s that are true and precise [dictonary style]. If this mean''s new genre''s then so be it. But i simply don''t like expanded genre abbreviations. It goes in the wrong direction. I don''t mind the use of games crossing genres as this doesn''t confuse the issue unneccarily.

The knot has to be untide now! or so i say ;-)







WE are their,
"Sons of the Free"




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