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No more RPGs!


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#41 pacman   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 10:17 AM

To the first anon poster:

Just because a few good games come along doesn''t justify the crap that comes with it. Yes, Fallout was, and still is a great RPG. In fact, on the box (did you buy it?), it states that it is "the most true to table-top RPGs yet" CRPG. This is one of the reasons why it is so great: it''s actually labeled an "RPG", and lives up to it. It''s not an action title with character stats and exp, which is what most "CRPGs" really are.

What Landfish was trying to say (I think, don''t hate me if I missed something) is that most CRPGs are just like the last one, with a different story, different characters you play as, and possibly a few "unique features". Hell, Final Fantasy went from you creating a character to set story-driven characters. I love both 1(NES) and 2(SNES), but 2 is less an RPG than it is a "story adventure".

BTW, stating your opinion (or whining, whatever you want to call it) is the point of message boards, and if you can''t handle others'' opinions, I suggest you leave.

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#42 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 10:27 AM

Traditional RPG''s are a reason to party. A group of fairly like minded people (usually friends)get together and enjoy each other''s company. Sort of like a friday night poker game. It''s exactly the same, including getting drunk/stoned and ordering pizza.

MMORPG''s aren''t parties, in that typically like minded people are there for different reasons. Some want to role play and some want to level-up, and some just want to socialize. Some want the shiny gee-gaw and some want to annoy other people in attention grabbing moments of pure mahem. And a lot want cybersex, I imagine (since that''s always been a prevalent theme of the MOOs.

In a tradional setting, players want to role play their characters (even if they want to power-level) because a third party referee rewards them for doing so. In MMORPG''s players are automatically rewarded by the system and everyone''s advancement rates are exactly the same. Everyone can attain the same levels, everyone can get the shiny gee-gaw and everyone can be annoying. I do honestly think that the GM/DM/Ref is the critical missing element of MMORPG''s. A skilled GM, who is creative, adaptive, clever, smart and thoughtful (which, I have had the honor of knowing several) can do more to entertain a group of people in one evening than EverQuest can provide in a month.

And, because it''s RPG and there really aren''t "reality" limits set on the players because of limitations defined by the system, they can perform tasks of daring do. Not so, in MMORPG''s. You can''t swing from the chandeliers, dress up like a (ugly) woman to fool the guards, diffuse the bomb, confuse the orcs and rescue a lady(or fella) in distress. All MMORPGs are basically exactly the same, just with different feature sets defined. Whack the monster. If you''re better than the monster, you win. If you''re worse than the monster, you die. If you win, you progress. If you lose, you get set back a bit. Also, all content has to be molded for the lowest (and youngest) common denominator, which, IMHO really really WRECKS MMORPGs. It''s like fighting the monsters at disney land. If you use naughty language, a sentinel or whatever will quickly remind you of the usage policy!

Vampire:The Redemption recently came out and I''ve been curious as to what people''s reactions are to it''s "StoryTeller" capability. Re-introducing the GM as arbiter and crafter of the player experience is a unique idea and I wonder if it will help breath new life in the CRPGs or if it''s just another gimmicky thing that still delivers a flat and uninteresting experience for the players. Neverwinter nights also looks potentially like it could provide a lot of spice. I do think that people will Role Play, as long as there''s a reason to do it. As long as Role playing is actually the goal and not trying to survive within an arbitrarily defined system of advancement.

#43 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 11:22 AM

Landfish, yeah I know what you mean I think. You begin the topic very strongly to induce oposition. You make a statement that gets people''s attention, and gets them riled up. That''s good, but some people fail to realize that there''s a point behind the blatant statement. I''m not saying you should tone down your post at all. That''s what a debate is all about. People should just realize the actual point. Admittedly, when I saw that you said RPG''s suck...I thought, "What the hell is Landfish talking about now?". Then as I read on I realized that you were tallking about developers holding on to systems without ever second-guessing them.

#44 Snyper   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 12:26 PM

Lies. ALL LIES!!!!!

#45 gameprogrammerwiz   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 12:45 PM

i agree. rpgs suck. mmorpgs are a lot better, but they need to be improved a lot. i''m going to quit ultima online because you''re character never lives more than two weeks without being PKed or killed by a monster. its too bad that mmorpgs arent free...

#46 Landfish   Members   -  Reputation: 288

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 12:55 PM

Naz: Scary, You just deconstructed my whole method of getting responses. Use it wisely. I know I haven''t, and that''s what makes threads like this little piece of crap.

I wonder if it''s possible to make a free MMORPG? I can think of a way, but it would operate off of advertising, which is shallow and not worth it. Anyone else?

#47 Paul Cunningham   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 02:15 PM

I''ll just quick rehash my thought''s on stats again. They were bad for pen/paper but effective for Crpg''s. The main reason is the IQ/INT stat. In pen and paper this one stat discouraged role playing but on the computer meduim it has a use (until we''re all using microphones over the net).

I also play a tonne of crpg''s and I love them and hate them.

I don''t think that rpg''s have to be story based either. The RPG is a 100% character and role driven theme. The story is purely cosmetic.

I like the idea of having an online DM/GM, but this person would have to have considerable control of the game with very inovation designed tools. Sort of like a cross between Dungeon Master and SimCity. Just an idea ;-)

Damn! I''m too placid this morning.I''ll think of something i hate then come back, [evil sniger]

- WE are their... "Sons of the Free" -

#48 Landfish   Members   -  Reputation: 288

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 02:34 PM

Will people please stop pretending that there are set definitions of what an RPG is or isn''t? Frankly, the genre is too varied in the artistic sense, while too constrictive in implementation to be defined by any means! And even then, what does definition get you? Nothing.

I''m getting impatient with these "RPGs". If you guys seem to love them so much, why not go and make some good ones? After all, this is GameDez.net, right? How hard could it be?

#49 Niphty   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 03:51 PM

LOL.. this is a good one Landfish. You said you wanted some opposition ;p

First of all, what is an RPG? what role do you play? You play the role of the character in a CRPG. It works two ways with that acronym. Computer RPG, and Character RPG You''re playing the role of something you cannot. We know computers are not boundless like the human mind. And we''ve accepted this, well.. most of us, anyways. The computer is stuck in a set number of things. Size of HDD, memory, speed of system.. etc. They all control how well the story can be portraied! So then, a CRPG is one of limited possiblities currently. This is an accepted standard. What we attempt to do is take it to a very good level, as best we can.

Example: cars. The first car was crap. It had NO suspension, and wooden tires. The engine produced a measly 2.5 horsepower (i think.. not sure here) and it had only one gear if i''m correct This seems like crap! Yet back then.. it was the best they had. And cars grew. The brakes got better, the suspension got much better, computerized optimal handling, sensors, circuits, relays. Sit the two next to eachother and they''re impossible to tell how the hell one relates to the other. They both have four wheels and some kinda door.. maybe even a trunk! That''s ALL. Yet they''re still CARS, we don''t call them anything else. They''re evolving still today. Many people don''t care about their cars. How many saturns do you see on the road? their POS!! Yet.. they''re still cars. I mean, i''d lump Saturn, Kia, Deawoo and probably even Ford and Chevy for the most part into one lump of "Crap cars" and then i''d put things like Honda, Toyota, BMW, etc.. into "good cars".
Cars do have breakdowns. Sports cars, luxury cars, compact, mid-size, full-size, SUV, trucks! All of them based on SEVERAL elements!!!
So perhaps the RPG world is lacking a breakdown. Maybe we should start putting them in different categories. Stat-RPGs, Skill-RPGs, Level-RPGs, Linear, non-linear, 3d, Isometric. We do the last bit.. but not the first? Come on Landfish.. make us some catch phrases or Buzz-words to associate with Statistics-based-RPG. SRPG? StRPG? and for Skill based, SkRPG? or since stats and skills go hand in hand, perhaps SRPG for the both of em? and LRPG for level-based?

The only REAL RPG is LARP. Live Action Role Playing. nothing beats a good LARP But in that YOU actually PLAY a role. You don''t sit in a chair and relay messages about what you think your character is doing, you actually DO THEM! therefore, table-top RPG is just as false as CRPG and MMORPG. The only real RPG is LARP, and simulated RPG is VLARP, Virtual Live Action Role Play! That''s right.. computerized worlds in which you virutally LARP! that''s a "real" RPG.
So now that we''ve attack the RPG name.. let''s see how this matters to us. IT DOESN''T! the industry believes in certain things with RPGs, and that''s it. The term is dead. It''s like the word GAY. It USED to mean happy, now it means "homosexual"!!! i mean, WTF? And think about it.. it''s happened to a LOT of things. buzz-words are everywhere, and they all suck! So forget it, Landfish. Try something else instead. Create your own catch-phrase for what you believe it to be, and get the industry to stop humpin the back of the term they already killed! (homocidal necroverbiac, perhaps? ) My friend actually has his own term for MMORPGs that he''s trademarked already And i get to use it cause he''s part of my company.. hehe. And no, i won''t tell you what it is ;p
So.. go forth and give us the term which describes what you want landfish. Don''t complain that they''ve screwed up the old term. Simply give them a new term, and tell them what it really means. I mean, hell.. how many people think the new millenium has already begun!?!?!

J

#50 Frag_Daddy_   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 04:18 PM



I don''t personally care if anybody makes RPGs, but the whole concept of just stopping all development because some guy said something is quite hilarious...

#51 Paul Cunningham   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 04:59 PM

Joke: When is a RPG not a RPG? (No answer, it just suited the topic)
Seriously...
I had an intriging thought today about the "when is a rpg not a rpg syndrome". There has been some posts on renaming RPG''s etc, that have cropped up in various threads relating to this one. My thought is this:
CPG = Character Playing Game
RPG = you know
I say let the game companies work out how to make their game a RPG and until then we''ll just frame them as CPG''s until were happy.

Diablo = CPG fact!

Critise to you hearts delite because i''m ready to argue for this cause. Or against, depending on you persective ;-)

If your a little confused then read my previous posts <--- that would make a conveinent profile signature.

#52 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 05:37 PM

Landfish,
Yeah, I realized your methods a while ago. If nothing else, you've made the board a much more active place even if 90% of the people reading it completely miss your point

BTW, there are a couple MMORPG's that are free in development. Eraonline and
Majik (<--I think you'd like that one) are two that come to mind.

With Eraonline, he got a company to give him a server. Probably in return for advertising on the website or something. I'm not sure. With Majik, I'm not sure how they're financing it. Maybe all the developers are already wealthy...I don't know...

Edited by - Nazrix on June 21, 2000 12:58:24 AM

#53 OoMMMoO   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 05:44 PM

Dude RPG''s are artwork, they are to let the player experience the story and feel the emotions of the characters. Why the hell do rpg''s suck?

I guess some people like them and some people dont but that is no reason to go telling everyone to give up on thier projects thats screwed up

#54 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 05:49 PM

Niphty,
You forgot Dodge sucks too. Stupid car I bought needs $1100 worth of repairs...

Frag_Daddy_,
Dude, you're going to give Landfish a damned heart-attack. He explicitly said that he is not trying to stop the production of RPG's. He's merely saying that the genre of RPG brings about people including the exact same things over and over. People hear RPG, and they think of some guy running around with a sword hacking things to pieces then going to a town and buying up some supplies. His point is that a lot of people who develop games don't even attempt to try something new. We really don't know what an RPG is exactly, but we do know that it has something to do w/ a guy running around w/ a sword hacking things, and he has a bunch of stats that tell him how good he is...etc.etc.etc...you can fill in the rest...

Sorry for speaking for you, Landfish, but I'm concerned for your emotional stablility.

Edited by - Nazrix on June 21, 2000 12:51:40 AM

Edited by - Nazrix on June 22, 2000 1:24:08 AM

#55 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 06:02 PM

OoMMMoO, you''re really missing the point...He''s not saying drop your projects. He is merely saying don''t rely on the stigma of what we consider an RPG to be. You have to read between the lines of the speech of the Landfish.

#56 Niphty   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 07:06 PM

LOL.. guys.. listen to Naz. Landfish did not say to stop making your game. He said don''t make it the stereotypical "RPG" game. Try incorporating something DIFFERENT, something NEW, something that''s cool. And don''t call it an RPG or you''ll get lumped with all the others.

J
p.s. be very worried about Landfish''s emotional state, i think i''ve caused his breakdown.. hehe!

#57 Ingenu   Members   -  Reputation: 897

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 09:36 PM

When designing my ''CRPG'', I first think about it as a RPG since the game was story driven and I tested the quality of the story by playing it as a pen & paper RPG.

After that I realise that I wasn''t playing pen&paper RPG as almost anyone does.
Then I think about it.
I look @ games called RPG that sold well, and I try to find why by playing them.
I play some other games named ''Adventure games'' lik OutCast, and I feel that it wasn''t sofar to what I wanted to achieve.

Finally I choose to call my game :
Adventure, RPG, strategic, interactive storytelling game.

What I wanted :
Outcast 3d engine quality, jokes and immersivness with new world to explore, Final Fantasy quality battle system along with FF quality FMV and music, Metal Gear Solid action, freedom and immersivness, music and story.
I later describe my games using those different games to highlit the type of action/settings at a given moment, I add Resident Evil to the list, and some few other games.

I still consider my game of being in the ''RPG'' genre, and I don''t think that I rely on classical ''RPG'' settings or just cut & paste another game.

I wanted to make the game I would love to play, and I designed it that way, using the part of other games I enjoy to explain people willing to join my project, or I wanted to help me making my game good, and I feel that''s a good way.
(UBISoft Game Designer Manager told me it was a really good idea to compare part of my game with other well known games, he told me he found that pretty cool cause people understand quickly what I wanted to achieve.)

Does someone think that I''ve designed a standard RPG game, that I rely on a genre to copy previous game design ?


-* So many things to do, so few time to spend *-

#58 MadKeithV   Moderators   -  Reputation: 971

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Posted 21 June 2000 - 11:40 PM

I reckon we''ll either have to ignore all the ignorant I-didn''t-read-the-thread-but-flamed-anyway posts, or get permission to moderate them out ourselves, they are just fluffing and diverting the discussion.

So, guys, are we going to start discussing what WOULD make a good gaming experience based on the strong points of LARPing?
( If you have never done Live Action RolePlaying, you''ve missed out , I used to do it even in our tabletop gaming sessions, which freaked a LOT of the players out. Standing up and shouting at my adversaries, or just getting into a corner of the room and eyeing everyone if I got distrustful ).

I think it doesn''t need a strong story. It needs a strong EXPERIENCE. A strong story can convey this, but perhaps there are other ways?



Give me one more medicated peaceful moment..
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~

#59 Roderik   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 22 June 2000 - 02:48 AM

F*ck, let''s just make good games! We are talking about wether we should call games RPG, StRPG, MMORPG, whatever, I mean, it''s stupid; let''s just make GAMES! Throw away all the categorys like RPG, FPS, RTS, whatever, forget them! I hate categorization into genres, I hate it in films, and I hate it in music. Why not just take the best of everything? Categorys lead to a smaller horizon. Just like style; I hate style. Do what you want, and what fits best, and crap your style, be it in life or in creating computer games.

BTW, I was the first anonymous poster, forgot to fill in my name. The other anonymous poster abused my message quite, since I don''t agree with him, but he quoted me totally out of context.

#60 Roderik   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 22 June 2000 - 02:52 AM

Oh, and Landfish, I hate you, because you want us to burn all RPGs in the world and everybody currently develpoing one; for this I will hunt you down and eventually kill you in a week-long torture!




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