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#21 Paul Cunningham   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 26 June 2000 - 07:47 AM

Well its true, a lot of game companies are employing people not just with the skills who can do the job but people who play games 24hrs a day. This way they get their feedback and production in one person. But how reliable is this one person? Its a complete gamble, sorry if i offended anyone but thats how i feel.

Every time we come up with an idea we question it in relevence to the consumer. Will they handle this? Is this as fool proof as it can be? etc. SO WE balance all of our judgements off the consumer regardless of how creative we are. Is this some kind of peer pressure we''re under?

yeah, we get an original idea. We write out a sales pitch to our staff. They say "yeah, we''ll do that next project, it sounds good". By the time the next project comes along there''s annother licence up for grabs and guess who got it. You did! Where does it end?

This is not a good cycle.

WE are their,
"Sons of the Free"

Sponsor:

#22 ManaSink   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 26 June 2000 - 08:35 AM

Most titles must walk a narrow path. If it is ''just another FPS or RTS'', the game is DOOMed for lack of originality. Original games that break new ground are often considered too confusing, too boring, too different, or ''just too damn original'' to succeed.

Blah.

I''ve played plenty of games that will never touch a sliver of market share, and plenty of games that were aimed the average consumer. There is no question in my mind which of them was ''right''. I believe the artistic consideration should come first, like writing a book, composing, painting. If you are fortunate enough to design what the common man will enjoy and you make some money, more power to you. If you take your creativity and skill and create a worthless piece of garbage aimed at the sheep for a quick dollar, well, there is a word for that in the English language, and it ain''t one the moderators will appreciate...

I realize this is unrealistic. I haven''t been the same since they quit selling games for my C64. (Damn I miss those old games!)

sniff....sniff...

ManaSink


#23 Niphty   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 26 June 2000 - 10:29 AM

I think i''m going to start a new club internationally. GDWA.. Game Designers With Attitudes. hehe We''ll add this one to this list of "things we should do, but are really too lazy to". Also on this list: GASP, Gamers Against Stupid Parents. This one we thought up to combat the stupid parents who think violence in games makes us violent. No, ma.. it was all that abuse as a child!

Ok, Paul.. sorry for gettin off topic with landfish, but.. he started it!! ;p

I don''t think we''re under "peer pressure" to conform to a medium for the consumer, we''re under "economic pressure". As in, do it like this or the game will flop. But that only goes for the DOOM cloners. But seriously.. we have to understand that people can and will break our games. What do we do then? We must anticipate things. I''d like to make AI work and have a fully functional 3d environment in which all objects are REAL, but.. not yet. I mean, what would you do with all these items? perhaps the gamer would come up with a "pen is mighter than the sword" kinda solution to something that you assumed the sword would be used for. We as humans can''t keep track of all the stuff in the games. "What? who put the pencil in level 4''s main office?! they''ll be able to solve my quest easily!" This happens with multiple designers/programmers or a multiple personality.. hehe I''m forgetful, so if i leave a pencil lying around in my game, and the gamer comes along and kills my huge man-eating creature that was designed to block an enterance.. well.. what''s behind there? NOTHING! hehe. What then? I saw a movie like this, but i can''t remember what. It had one of those "oops, we weren''t supposed to do this" kinda things. Ultima 8 had this. If you had the cheat, you could teleport to where you shouldn''t be, and the map had nothing to render, so it merely created a buncha replica lines of what was already on the screen. At least it didn''t error
It''s impossible to make a world so complete that the user will not go to the end of it unless you''ve got a very small, round world. What''s beyond the end? nothing.. prove it Well, this is how i feel as a gamer. And i understand as a programmer why it must be that way. And it hurts us all, i think, that we can''t fully develop like we wish to. In my MMORPG, i''ve got a system to allow people to walk off the beaten path. This gives rangers something to do. And yes, there are things that aren''t mapped out to the player''s civilization.. and i can''t wait till someone stumbles upon something
The most obivous way to create a blockage is to have some sorta natural feature. Quest for Glory 3 had a huge map you could roam. There were mountains on all sides, and a river, and even a huge canyon. Yet.. you couldn''t attempt to cross the river or even explore in the mountains And the city you were in! only had exits to the part trapped in!! how did these people get any sort of trade goods! ACK! designer''s nightmare.. right there A player like me who questions things. Sometimes you have to concede and say "we simply can''t do that". At what point do you do this? Only when there''s no other option. If you want the player limited, do it. Don''t screw around thinking that they might get annoyed at you. They''ll understand, and if they don''t.. they''re jerks There''s always gonna be someone who says "why didn''t i get my way?" and you say "make your own game if you want your way.. i did" hehe

J



#24 Paul Cunningham   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 27 June 2000 - 01:01 AM

from Niphty
quote:

It''s impossible to make a world so complete that the user will not go to the end of it unless you''ve got a very small, round world. What''s beyond the end? nothing.. prove it


You can always use map wrapping as i think you said. That''s real life too.
----
A lot of RPG developers think they have to have something exciting in every tile/chunk of graphic. I think thats rubbish. A lot of damn good rpg''s make massive maps but only have interesting elements implaced here an there i.e. fairey tale, fallout, battlemech, sentinal worlds etc. these were all good and sucessful games.

What really annoys me is when the odd developer breaks through with new ideas, the game sells excedingly well an no one in the industry talks about it or accepts these new ideas. Then every time someone uses these ideas it''s a breakthrough all over again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again you get my point. It''s got to be the worst element in the industry... Ignorance. We lack history, we need somewhere where our progresses can be noted and filed for everyone to see. Like a public domain library on every aspect of computer game development.

There''s just too much confusion. Everyone''s talking it up but knowones really taking any serious notes.

I hear people say i just do it my way. That''s rubbish. Because every idea you have is FOR the player! I don''t think i''ve heard of an idea for a game where "player consideration" is not the foundating there of.

I believe we take every player on a journey. There''s a well known term called "Suspension of Disbelief". It is the prime goal of every writer to attain as much suspension of disbelief in their stories as they can.

(from Maitrek)
quote:


It''s hard not to be pulled in all directions and that''s why we always play it so safe because it''s a big risk to
a) respond to something the consumers say and
b) not respond to something consumers say


Ahhh, that''s a very clearing thought Maitrek, thank you. So what you are saying is (my interpretation). How can a consumer know what they are talking about if we don''t? Thus, we remain constant and uptodate is the formula for survival/yes?




WE are their,
"Sons of the Free"

#25 Niphty   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 27 June 2000 - 04:29 AM

Paul, how the heck do you do those quotes? lol.. i asked somewhere and never got an answer.. hehe

Yeah, i think a library of game design terms and ideas would be neat, but impossible. LOL
And yeah, we all hafta assume the player in the equation. it''s difficult to do. isn''t that the point of this thread?

J

#26 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

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Posted 27 June 2000 - 05:20 AM

you use [ quote ] and [ / quote ] and cut & paste...

Edited by - Nazrix on June 27, 2000 12:25:23 PM

#27 Paul Cunningham   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 27 June 2000 - 02:54 PM

quote:
Original post by Niphty

Paul, how the heck do you do those quotes? lol.. i asked somewhere and never got an answer.. hehe

Yeah, i think a library of game design terms and ideas would be neat, but impossible. LOL
And yeah, we all hafta assume the player in the equation. it''s difficult to do. isn''t that the point of this thread?

J


Ok, you see those four little icons above( ^ ^ ^ ) this writing, use the one on the right. It replies to a post. Now that you''ve done this you''ll notice two things in the message box: First a
quote:
at the start and a
at the end. Does that explain it well enough :-)?

= end quote



WE are their,
"Sons of the Free"

#28 Paul Cunningham   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 27 June 2000 - 03:01 PM

quote:
Original post by Niphty

Paul, how the heck do you do those quotes? lol.. i asked somewhere and never got an answer.. hehe

Yeah, i think a library of game design terms and ideas would be neat, but impossible. LOL
And yeah, we all hafta assume the player in the equation. it''s difficult to do. isn''t that the point of this thread?

J


I don''t think this thread exists Niphty. It''s sort of stuck between real world and virtual world like a rift in time/space. I know.. virtual cul de sac. I''ll have to redo it so it attracts a broader audience.

Warning: Thread Closed Ahead


WE are their,
"Sons of the Free"

#29 Maitrek   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 27 June 2000 - 09:49 PM

quote
Sorta like this?
/quote

#30 Maitrek   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 27 June 2000 - 09:51 PM

Ugh - damn quotes...
Still don''t get it.




#31 Niphty   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 27 June 2000 - 09:57 PM


whee, let''s quote!


J


#32 Niphty   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 27 June 2000 - 10:00 PM

quote:
Original post by Paul Cunningham

[quote] Original post by Niphty

Paul, how the heck do you do those quotes? lol.. i asked somewhere and never got an answer.. hehe

Yeah, i think a library of game design terms and ideas would be neat, but impossible. LOL
And yeah, we all hafta assume the player in the equation. it''s difficult to do. isn''t that the point of this thread?

J


I don''t think this thread exists Niphty. It''s sort of stuck between real world and virtual world like a rift in time/space. I know.. virtual cul de sac. I''ll have to redo it so it attracts a broader audience.

Warning: Thread Closed Ahead


WE are their,
"Sons of the Free"

Ahh.. i see now. hehe you literally surround the word quote with [ ] with no spaces. and use /quote at the end. WHEE!
And the reply to message button auto-quotes the person''s message. damn, how''d i miss that icon? Thanks Paul and Naz!

Ok, now.. let''s get a good thread going for this.. hehe.

J


#33 STVOY   Members   -  Reputation: 156

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Posted 28 June 2000 - 12:33 PM

Here Goes,

quote:


Well here I go





STVOY

Mega Moh Mine!!

#34 Paul Cunningham   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 28 June 2000 - 04:48 PM

I wonder what happen when you do a quote within a quote---

quote:

first quote
[quote]
second quote




lets see...



WE are their,
"Sons of the Free"

#35 Maitrek   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 28 June 2000 - 05:09 PM

Ahh I get this now (maybe)

quote:

Blah blah blah - look a quote?



Hrm - if that doesn''t work I''ll start testing my sanity (and maybe rsign myself to simpler job.)

#36 Maitrek   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 28 June 2000 - 05:16 PM

Is there a on going topic here?


#37 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

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Posted 28 June 2000 - 05:19 PM

Not really...just people w/ no lives wasting server space...




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