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Who needs levels?


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#21 Niphty   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 30 June 2000 - 04:25 AM

Ok, I''ve refrained from commenting as of yet to see what kinda feedback i could get Now..

Levels are not evil. We have levels in life. Think about your job, what level are you? I bet if you got a tree out and looked down it, you''d find you''re position number 43 or some such. There''s a number with that level, you just don''t know it. You know a TITLE. The level has been pulled away from you and you''ve been given something instead. Perhaps the title of Janitor isn''t nessicarily one you''d think of being.. but that''s a different job skill than what you have, right? I mean, if you were to strip out the corporate ladder of things, and right them all based on job-type, there''s levels within jobs. There''s the lowly toilet-bowl janitor, and the supreme "i clean bill gates'' office" position It''s all based on salary level within the work place. Which shows you how inter-twined the things are. Some positions some people see as being "easy" and others "hard" but they also see people as how much they''re making.. "oh look at her, she''s got such and easy job, and she gets paid more, too!" is it really an easy job, or does that person just do it well and make it seem easy? Your boss, they get paid more.. why? are they more skilled? well.. yes! people rise through the positions by being skilled at what they do. In a company there''s not many levels, true.. but in a game, should there be a lot of levels? In a company, levels are limited.. you have a maximum goal to attain.
Now, let''s structure this more.. you begin working at a dock, unloading things. You know NOTHING of this. You begin working, being instructed by a trainer. Perhaps they show you videos and you "learn" something. You take a test to assure you know it all right. You get safety lectures, etc etc. Well, then you go and start your job. You''ve got skills you''ve never used, so naturally you''re a bit shaky. You go and start working, and find you know what you''re doing. Then you mess up, and someone corrects you. As time passes, you come to know your position well, and you begin to help your particular dock''s supervisor with deciding where to put things. You''re learning new things that''s based on what you did previously. Eventually, the supervisor is promoted, and you get his job. You get comfortable in that position and you work hard to move up again. You start learning how the second dock works, and you have to learn some new things along with that. Their layout is different, etc. Eventually you become supervisor over those two docks.. and then five, and then the harbor.. lol
So now that you know you''ve got a ladder that you deal with, tell me people don''t "skill up" and try to gain levels in life. It means higher pay, higher status, and more benefits. Who the hell doesn''t want that? Bill Gates has NOWHERE to go, basically. he could become president, but i doubt that lies within his scope of vision But he is at the top of his job market. However, he competes with others in the same position as he is. In a sense.. those two keep people from attainting their level of status.. how? well.. this is the interesting part that i''m still working out, exactly
At Bill''s level, he''s god.. but he''s not alone. There are other gods, all competing to be your god, and the god of gods. How does this battle play out? well.. they keep raising the bar. Bill says "i''m upping you by 20" and the players at his poker table of life either say "fold" or "i see your raise" and some follow with "and raise you 10"
So now, the poker example. Imainge all the classifications of Bill Gates'' job starting with his position at top to way down bottom. He''s in a management position, but he came from software development. This means that all jobs lead to one job in the end, right? You eventually become the top programmer, and then you have to achieve management status. Management status is the upper crust of all jobs. The IT professional is a software engineer who just made it to the top and learned the corporate world Well.. thinking about this, then.. you wonder about things. But back to the poker. Bill and others sit at a table together. Those people are in his "level". Now, someone else.. a new person, sits with them. He has not the skills to play poker on their level. he gets decimated. He goes away thinking "i''m not good enough" but in reality, he just tried to skip the ladder of success. He didn''t know their rules, how they played, and how brutal they could be, all while smiling at you! So, let''s look at this from someone who IS in a position to break into Bill''s table.
They step up, sit down.. aware they''re in the biggest of all leagues. They fire it up, win a couple hands.. and they''re on a roll. Well, the big guys think "do we WANT another person in here?" Bill telepathically says "no no no". So what happens? they all work against the other player. He''s frightened them. They keep betting and betting until he has nothing more to bet and MUST fold. So this right here becomes that someone decides not to like this guy, and on a gamble.. tries to outdo him. It could cost the companies a lot of money, but for the winner.. well, they''re still alive. Sometimes more''n one company does this to a single other company. So they''re raising the bar.

How does this apply to levels? well, if you can''t reach the max level because the max level is constantly going up.. well.. how''s that for true to life? As people try to hit the top, they push the top higher. The top never stops.. but the levels below it become baised on that top. So it''s like this.. people at the top have to get a lotta exp to move up. The top expands quickly, while the bottom doesn''t move. That way at the lower level, you still don''t need much to get levels, but it''s always getting progressively harder to get to the top. This is because the top guys keep pushing the top higher. That way they have something to push for, yet they''re not gaining any levels, they''re just trying to keep people out of their level

So go ahead.. try to ponder that a bit. it isn''t fair to those who come later, but hey.. too bad. You get in the game early, or you have to spend a lot of time working your way up. that''s how life is

J

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#22 Paul Cunningham   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 30 June 2000 - 05:49 AM

No one in the world is better or more important the one self. There''s no levels!!! If you want to have levels then they shouldn''t be so generic in a "ROLE PLAYING game"

Hell, measure your sword, skills, pants, or even dick :-) BUT levels DON''T do this do they. No, levels measure if your ROLE is better or worse than another because levels are used GENERICALLY.

That to me is Anti-role-playing!


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#23 Niphty   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 30 June 2000 - 06:18 AM

Some harsh words there Paul

I think you need to tone the emotional control up a bit and gain some control over your feelings. In the wise words of Master Yoda: Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering!
What''re you afraid of? hehe

Anyways.. the point of levels is to allow people to have a status in some way. The levels, like stats, could be hidden except for "novice" etc. a Novice is someone who is just starting to get going.. and they''re not intermediate And then comes Advanced. They''re all levels, just generalized levels. It''s important that in those times they DID classify people into levels. Not "you''re level 30 of the barbarian guild" but you''re an apprentice or a journeyman etc. They''re all level classifications.. it''s just a matter of using a classification system themed to the game You don''t merely want to say "you''re a commander" but "you''re a commander of the human forces naval fleet, group 16" or some such. That means a LOT when it comes down to it. Personalization of the levels is a BIG thing. That way someone of level X might have more skill than Level Y, but level Y is from another place where things are run differently. Think military ranks if nothing else

J

#24 Silvermyst   Members   -  Reputation: 113

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Posted 30 June 2000 - 06:31 AM

NIPHTY: I agree. Levels give status. But...games NEED levels because they simply lack the opportunity to give players status in any other way.

Players COULD get status by politics, guilds, infamy and fame, family, friends, ranks in armies, ranks in sports, special honours etc.

Levels are the simplest answer to the fact that games just miss any real sense of status.

So...getting rid of a level system will only work when a REAL system is used instead (how that would be achieved I don''t know).



#25 Paul Cunningham   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 30 June 2000 - 06:43 AM

quote:
Original post by Niphty

Some harsh words there Paul

I think you need to tone the emotional control up a bit and gain some control over your feelings. In the wise words of Master Yoda: Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering!
What''re you afraid of? hehe



Sorry, i forgot the smileys :-). They make a lot of difference.



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