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Using Lisp (or another language) to generate fictional characters


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#121 kordova   Members   -  Reputation: 138

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Posted 27 November 2003 - 02:34 AM

quote:
Original post by SecondBest
Ummmmmmm, isn''t it our knowledge of C (or any other programming language) that enables us to make games in the first place?

Maybe. But by that same token we are limited by the limitations of that very language moreso than by our own ideas. If you don''t really see that you should reread this thread.

quote:
Original post by SecondBest
Being aware of your limitations and working with them is a much stronger tool than blind enthusiasm.


I don''t see any blind enthusiasm. In fact I see a little actual thought and work as opposed to going out and reading a stock lamothe book and making what everyone else is learning to make as though its the only form of expression on the market.

I agree that you should be aware of the limitations of your tools. However, these limitations should not cripple your creativity on any given project. If there exists a better tool for the job than you should take advantage of it. Do you really think any one language is the best for anything and everything?

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#122 bjmumblingmiles   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 27 November 2003 - 03:50 AM

The abstractions we think in are abstractions pertaining to programming knowledge we have acquired thus far. Data type oriented, functional, even object oriented abstractions are still an extra layer above reality.

#123 cannelbrae   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 27 November 2003 - 09:14 AM

Blue. Red. Apple.

Those are all abstractions too. They have nothing to do with programming. Our minds operate on abstractions. Those are the types of abstractions I am talking about.

When it comes to comparing things, we use some form of a metric. That metric is an abstraction.

When it comes to relating things, we use stories and prior experiences. These are abstractions as well.

In this thread, over and over, people use different abstractions and problem solving methods while arguing that theirs was the best/only workable one. This isn''t all due to language, its due to how people thing at a much more basic level.

#124 Neoshaman   Members   -  Reputation: 170

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Posted 27 November 2003 - 09:47 AM

quote:
I think this topic would be alot more interesting if people who knew NOTHING of C or machine code were the ones discussing it. We''ve sacrificed our brains to make them think in machine code.


actually i fit the description, i know a little about pprpg and not that much about crpg (and i have no veneration for their definition then i could use any definition)
sometimes since i''m talking of diferent thing people don''t take me seriously, but i have proven in the past (in other domain) that i could surprise everyone, that''s why sometimes i may sound stupid, but the reply is analyzed and i get less each times and then could go beyond the problematic

well i''m still aware of code, but i have no value wether a code or a method is better than another, for ex i''m discussing with the rpgmaker community to adapt the lisp style programming in rpgmaker with using dinamic management of variable with an emulation of pointer, now we discuss how to emulate a list into a list with atom, i don''t know that much lisp (i have just begin learning him) and the programming style is very similar to assembly (i know little about it)
my method is just to borrow method and pattern from different things to build another one, that''s why i''m an artist and not a programmer

quote:
In this thread, over and over, people use different abstractions and problem solving methods while arguing that theirs was the best/only workable one. This isn''t all due to language, its due to how people thing at a much more basic level.

i don''t beleive in best method i only care the goal and the result

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

#125 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 04 December 2003 - 11:10 AM

Getting off track I feel with the usual bickering...

So if I could bring us back on track.

For my own understanding, why is this system any use at all? If it''s merely to produce a summary of a virtual persons life then fine. But as mentioned such a bit of text (or however you represent it) probably won''t be enough to produce a deep character. There''s another nature vs nuture argument here.

I don''t see stats as a bad thing, especially if in the end you want to derive something about the character. ie ''integrate'' over the events to say ''aged 21 the character was...''.

Sorry if I''ve missed the posts with this in already but can''t this be achieved in a simple and efficient manner with a FSM?

And whilst it is marginally more complex an interwoven history of a population would also be possible. Just think about the events happening to the population as a whole eg there''s a fight at blah blah, pick two people (with the ability to fight), done.

The (isa ... ...) style that was suggested gave me the idea of using something like OpenCyc. Create a complete knowledge base of the history of the population.

Note that the individual only mention is really a questionable endeavour, the whole idea that you have to store information in the child about the father being an alcholic is silly. You have to store all that extra information for each event, ie the usual why, how, when, where, what happened before and after.


#126 Neoshaman   Members   -  Reputation: 170

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Posted 21 December 2003 - 02:53 PM

here is my template for character generation i would use, it's been a while it's been done
those with a "*" mean that the character data is use in virtual character (i have concret oppose a virtual character, a group, a "force" or the dna (see generate interlude thread) is label as virtual)
PS: i have the read again my post again generate interlude thread >>>> my god, BAD ENGLISH, hope this one would be better)

notice that there is three layer:
the generic layer, where the character basic description free from contexte
the contexte sensitive layer, where the character is define from the settings context
and the narrative layer, which is the purpose of the character in the story plane, his fct

GENERIC
< *id (name, surname, nickname, etc...)
< appearance (description: height, weight, mark, etc...)
< *generic psychology (personnality, attitude and speaking, etc...)

CONTEXT
< *goal, need, desire, fear, preocupation
< *preference, taste
< *standard, moral, belief
< good and bad traits
< *relation with other characters
: name of the character
: status of the relation (friends, ally, etc)
: degree and frequency of the relation
: polarisation of the relation (good/bad)
: historic of the relation
: purpose of the relation (story behind)
< status in the worldh (fct,title, influance, power, implication, reputation, patrimoin (i'm not sure of this term in englis))
< aptitude (knowledge, possibility (physic, spiritual (intelligence, sensibility etc...), social), competance, qualification)
< habit
: clothe style, makeup, jewelry, etc...
: occupation, work, hobby
: habitual place, living place, casual place, environement
: food, drink
: frequentation
< background
: origine
: story/past events (past habit, past relation, etc...)
: education
: link with the present (the story space)

NARRATIVE
< objective scenaristic (purpose and finality in the scenario)
< fonction in the story (opponent, hero, etc...)
< fonction symbolic (discursive purpose, the character as an element of language)

other
< luck (add some randomness)
< possible evolution (constrain or guide into some predefine change)


the generation as not to fill all slot, and some could be left blank according to the resolution/depth you need for a character
the blank would help have a more flexible use of character as well, since you could generate on the fly the needed content and face many situation
the generator also has "trick" rule to convert a profile to break impossible resolution state (the most famous is the deus ex machina or some conversion trick (a character discover that he had a family link which permit him to shift a force, and open new possibility or resolve dilemna), but the engine could also use trick like ellipse, which left blank the way of an resolution)

the narrative layer could be weight and his related to the theme layer of the whole engine, it add a meaning flow to the story, the purpose is not to have deeper story but to fit the story along some path for consistancy (goal/purpose of the story)
with a lower weight, the flow would be more like a simulation (more "real", action driven) but with a high value it became more sureal/symbolic (mythology or legend are this kind of story)

each "atom" data has a value attach to them, which permit the program to choose on purpose rather than pure randomness and help the building have consistency

more about the virtual character
the virtual aspect represent actually the mind of a character, a concrete character is only a virtual one with a "body", but for one body you could have many mind or one mind could control many body, a character is then the basic system of decision making/appraisal, it's help to control things like balance of force and give them a strategy (personnality) and a wy to make decision in a meaningful way (help avoid the mechanically type on construction, by building the style around preference of character)
the power with that if you can stop the play and let character tell his story or a story with his own point of view/taste and even more (shift the personnality of the dna to change the ambiance of a play or put the teller as a concrete character, which mean the story fold around his own experiance within the world)

any comments??

EDIT:
about the narrative/themes fonctionnality
the fact is that it inhibit or reinforce action/decision taken towards the theme to keep consistency

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[edited by - Neoshaman on December 21, 2003 12:11:02 AM]

#127 Woodsman   Members   -  Reputation: 426

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Posted 21 December 2003 - 03:16 PM

quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
But as mentioned such a bit of text (or however you represent it) probably won''t be enough to produce a deep character.

I''m pretty sure that the original focus is to generate a history for a character. In any event, to respond to your remark, what makes a character deep?

quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
There''s another nature vs nuture argument here.

Huh?


If a plant cannot live according to its nature, it dies; so a man.




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