Jump to content

  • Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account

We need your feedback on a survey! Each completed response supports our community and gives you a chance to win a $25 Amazon gift card!


Players as monsters in MMORPGs


Old topic!
Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.

  • You cannot reply to this topic
52 replies to this topic

#21 Spyder   Members   -  Reputation: 122

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 05 July 2000 - 10:57 PM

Re: some creature resemebling something

Are you talking about singleplayer? Thats all fine, usually singleplayers are able to save their games, but perhaps you want to remove saving games?

Are you talking about multiplayer, where the player and all his information is stored on a online server? You have obviously not played alot of online rpg games. Have you heard of lag? Has you internet connection every went down for 24 hours? Or someone picking up the phone when you are on a modem? Or simply AFK?

Sponsor:

#22 Spyder   Members   -  Reputation: 122

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 05 July 2000 - 11:08 PM

quote:
I have been suggesting a way to allow players to play as "monsters" in our _in design_ MMORPG. This role has traditionaly been an NPC, but, by allowing players to become these creatures you can justify PKing. I''m not sure that it would be PKing, because the other player is a monster and players wouldn''t know if it was an NPC (we would still have NPC monsters) or a PC. What are some of you thoughts on this ideal?



This has been implemented in thousands of muds, in different constellations of race wars. I''d reccomend you to check out Duris, there are like 15 goodie races and 15 evil. This is no commercial since i don''t play duris myself.

#23 STVOY   Members   -  Reputation: 156

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 05 July 2000 - 11:16 PM

Well Now,

I would think when playing a network multiplayer
after completing the game the player can then
choose to play as one of the monsters. A lot of
other games do it so why not an RPG.

STVOY

Mega Moh Mine!!

#24 mordell   Members   -  Reputation: 122

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 06 July 2000 - 03:52 AM


I meant to jump in this discussion when it started yesterday, but got sidetracked!

A. Buza basically outlined one of the most successful and enjoyable pen and paper campaigns I ever got to experience.

A well established character of mine had died while trying to finish an extremely important quest. The quest was so important, to others not myself, that my god intervened and allowed me to rise from the dead in an attempt to finish my quest. My reward for finishing the quest? Entrance into the afterlife...

What was really cool about it was that the GM allowed my undead character to raise in "undead" experience levels. Where each new level gained a transformation into an new, but more powerful undead. When I "died" as an undead, then I lost a level of my transformation. One of the biggest banes where clerics of other gods...the fear of banishment before fulfilling my quest was strong. Clerics of my god actually were able to recognize me as "touched" by our god and so provided what aid they could, etc..

I don''t know *how* he determined the experience, and it was most likely arbitrary, but it was very cool. There are LOTS of limitations when you are dead...


I have always thought that being able to play pretty much any concievable character in game would be cool. If you look at some "monsters" as just another race trying to survive, then they really aren''t monsters at all...they just have a different perspective.

I don''t think that races such as Orc or Goblin are inheritly evil (unless the campaign or world requires it), but I could see where they might have racial tenencies.

Another successful campaign that I participated in was as an Orc shaman (magic user). The orc culture the GM described was one where the social order was ruled by the strong. As I gained in experience, it was a requirement to duel (to the death) other members of the social order in order to advance.

However, advancement by cunning or treachery was almost worth more (respect wise) than just overpowering your opponent. Meaning I always had to look over my shoulder for assassination attempts and other acts of treachery while looking for opportunities to attempt some of my own!


Transferring these pen/paper ideas to a computer world I think could be highly successful though extremely difficult. I mean, what if you could mix and match races to form hybrids that were likely unique? Don''t get me started on the success of my half elf, half fire demon character ..

Well, I really rambled waaaay off topic...*sigh* ...

I am enjoying following this thread! It has stirred up alot of emotions / ideas that have been bubbling beneath the surface for way tooo long!











#25 Ferinorius   Members   -  Reputation: 125

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 06 July 2000 - 06:58 AM

that landfish mirage brings some good points.

Imagine it. If there was nothing after death except to start a new character, you know how attatched people would be to the game? It is amazingly strong bond we could make if we were in such a living realistic world.

Something I can see coming with this grand game is the thought that you aren''t the sole person here. Let me explain.

Say on the other side of the continent your good friend who started the game with you months back was killed by a murderer around one town. You are on a miniquest or such on the other side of the continent when all of a sudden a messenger boy delivers the news that your comrade is dead, and you are to attend the funeral. This makes the world revolving in a sense. Just because you are in this world doesn''t mean it has to revolve around you like some single player RPGs do. NOt a good example I know

But the thing I''m trying to point out is that it is a close simulation to a real world. Life death, strife, terror, innocence....it goes on and on

And another cool point i thought. Say after you are dead, you can explore/live in a whole other worlld a la Kain:Soul Reaver? You are transported to another realm to live.

#26 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 06 July 2000 - 08:21 AM

Let me explain a bit why I''m against permanent character deaths.

The problem is that even if your character dies, I doubt it will be as big an event as you guys make it out to be. The player will probably just say to his friends: "hey, its me! Yeah, that guy really nailed me, huh. If he''s not already dead maybe we''ll go knock him off.". It just doesn''t seem that dramatic to me.

The way I see it, it just doesn''t seem to matter too much to me whether or not you die. You just create a new guy and go on.

Is there something I''m missing here?


----------------------------------------
Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant and she fell on me? Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny.

#27 Ferinorius   Members   -  Reputation: 125

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 06 July 2000 - 11:12 AM

maybe the reason it isn''t that big is because nobody ROLE PLAYS! if everyone played their part, then they would definately think twice about death and such things, and even be remorseful the next time around.

It doesn''t have to be game over when you die, just the end of something you were working on, and the start of something else, such as an afterlife or the revenge of you or something.

#28 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 06 July 2000 - 11:19 AM

quote:
Original post by The Senshi

Let me explain a bit why I''m against permanent character deaths.

The problem is that even if your character dies, I doubt it will be as big an event as you guys make it out to be. The player will probably just say to his friends: "hey, its me! Yeah, that guy really nailed me, huh. If he''s not already dead maybe we''ll go knock him off.". It just doesn''t seem that dramatic to me.

The way I see it, it just doesn''t seem to matter too much to me whether or not you die. You just create a new guy and go on.

Is there something I''m missing here?


----------------------------------------
Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant and she fell on me? Then it wouldn''t seem quite so funny.



The thing is: If it''s a game where people build their character over time not just w/ stats and skills, but w/ a distinct role in a world then they won''t want to lose that character.



"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." --William Blake

#29 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

Likes

Posted 06 July 2000 - 01:17 PM

From a marketing point of view, permanent player death is a very bad idea. In RPGs, MM or not, players enjoy become attached to their characters, working long and hard to make them as cool as possible. In MMORPGs they even build relationships under that persona. When that character dies, so does the player''s connection to the game world, and the player may stop playing your game altogether. Think if you got 40 hours through ff7 and then your save file is erased. Are you going to start over again immediately? Not bloody likely. Maybe in a week or two, maybe never. After a permanent death, what''s the point of making a new character? Not only will you suck for a long time, but the new one will probably die before long anyway. it seems very discouraging.

Your support for Permanent death seems to be based on encouraging realistic role-playing and avoiding trolls through the FEAR of death. There are other ways of making the players fear death, without making it so totally devastating. Loss of experience, equipment or money, embarassing social stigma(?) you get the point. Maybe it would be possible to resurrect your character, but only within a certain time limit or a certain number of times. Maybe for a hefty price you could "save" your character like in a regular RPG, and when you die your character would be returned to that state.

Another way to discourage PK is to have a bounty hunter system or a police force within your game. An avid PK''er may soon find that he has a huge price on his head, with sheriffs and other PK''ers out hunting for his hide.

I have recently been toying with the idea of having a whole party, or even a whole clan/family of characters in a MMORPG. If you have 5-8 characters, permanent death would be a tragic loss, but you would still have a strong presence within the game. New characers could then be "born", or NPC characters could be recruited to join your party. With a little equiptment and training, you could make up for the loss of your character without losing your progress in the game. This could also add a lot more strategy to battle, something in dire need, as I''ve noticed that MMORPGs tend to have very simplistic, boring battle systems.

Theoretically, concepts like player-run stores and even player-built cities could flourish if you had a whole clan of characters. Some characters would have duties, like minding the shops, while others would be the clerics and warriors. An A.I. Major-domo would basically run your entire clan for you, until you step in and take control of specific parts. Imagine taking control of your most powerful warrior, getting together a 5-6 person adventuring party, and going on a quest. while you''re party is away, your castle might be raided by goblins, so you take control of the captain of the guard and organize a defense. the possibilities are endless, and largely unexplored.




#30 Capcommunist   Members   -  Reputation: 122

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 06 July 2000 - 01:22 PM

Bah. Was I foolish to think that just because I typed in a Username It would show up on my post? Well, the registration Nazi''s seem to think so. That last post was written by me.

#31 Ferinorius   Members   -  Reputation: 125

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 06 July 2000 - 01:29 PM

Two thing capcommunist said i agree with whole heartedly. Number one, the whole market standpoint. THe other is the family.

Maybe death doesn''t have to be "the end" but it should be something so big and tragic that it has to be feared and kept away from. That is what needs to happen. And then if you have a status like thing, say you are a known murderer/PK and you are killed, then you suffer more than an average person, and say you are a well respected person, then you don''t suffer as bad, and can bring your character back with minimal loss.

#32 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

Likes

Posted 06 July 2000 - 01:46 PM

Capcommunist might be right... but by his logic, gambling should be a monetary failure. It''s not, and niether would this be. A few points to consider:

1. The very system would make death infrequent. Try for a moment to imagine a system where items and monet just don''t pop off of a body when it dies. Where murder and thievery will be acts no longer performed by self-styled adventurers, but by murderers and thieves.

2. You assume that people pay to succeed. The don''t necessarily want that! A system with a greater degree of realism would still be fun to play, because it would still be in a world that is alien and mystical. I''m still playing a person I could never be! The illusion of realism simply reinforces the fantasy.

Many people accuse me of assuming that I know better than the player, when they are doing just that themselves. Pay attention. Just because it''s the way it''s done doesn''t mean it''s the best way. Remember that we are using a dated system that was created for an entirely different style of game... and we''re simply fooling ourselves if we say we''ve got it as good as it could be!

Of course, if you don''t want to create a realistic environment, by all means have scrolls of ressurection.

#33 Capcommunist   Members   -  Reputation: 122

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 06 July 2000 - 04:52 PM

You seem to be putting realism ahead of fun because you think realism will *be* fun. I live in the real world, and it''s not usually much fun. I Don''t invent new ways of making games more realistic, I invent new ways of making them more fun.

You *could* have a RPG with taxes and credit payments, loans and accountants, but it would suck. So would a game where hundreds of hours of hard work are destroyed in 3 seconds because you forgot to equip your new chestplate. People make mistakes. People let their stupid friends play their games. people misjudge their opposition, and people die. As a game designer you have to accomodate that, or people won''t play your games, and your publisher will never work with you again.

*IF* you''re dead set on permanent character death, at least find a way for the game to continue beyond that point, as opposed to beginning anew. There''s a reason the industry is slowly moving away from the "extra life" mentality. Even games that still have a set number of lives are usually made exceedingly easy, so that even inexperienced gamers can enjoy the product.

Seriously, destroying countless hours of the players hard work is not the way to encourage sales. that''s the bottom line.



#34 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

Likes

Posted 06 July 2000 - 10:26 PM

You ignored my point.

The physical laws of reality do not make reality not fun. If they were to remain in place, but someone allowed you to live as a samurai warlord without consequence for an hour or two, you''d say "right on!"

Those physical laws would change the way the game is played. If you make combat not IDEALISED... if you make it brutal and often deadly... fewer people will engage in combat recklessly. Generally you will only die if you deserve it, took a risk, or were killed by a psychopath. The issue is, it''s completely not worht the psychopath''s time and effort to kill strangers and hence lose HIS character.

Since I think all games are gravitating toward active administrators anyway, it would be a cinch to fix/prevent freak deaths anyway. But charging off to war with a deadly enemy will mean so much more if the enemy is REALLY deadly.

Realism isn''t what''s not fun. It''s our lives that aren''t fun, because of all the crap that we''ve heaped on top of reality. Fantasy settings don''t have that crap, and a lot of people would probably like to hang out in a "better" real world. If death isn''t as common as it is in traditional MMORPGs, you won''t have that problem.

#35 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 07 July 2000 - 02:08 AM

We all know that Landfishian Philosophy has no compliance with marketing.

"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." --William Blake


Edited by - Nazrix on July 7, 2000 11:41:58 AM

#36 Ferinorius   Members   -  Reputation: 125

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 07 July 2000 - 03:19 AM

quote:


But charging off to war with a deadly enemy will mean so much more if the enemy is REALLY deadly.




I like that a lot, and I think that is what I have been trying to express the whole time.

People will think twice about letting their characters be played with by others, they will think twice about charging off against some super powerful wizard. They will actually think about things. So what if the timid players are too scared to go off and kill that big eyed deer in the meadow cuz they are afraid it will kill them.

This will make it so that they will cherish their characters. They will cherish the bonds they form with others. All because it is a real life, and if you die you start over or with some sort of loss or such.

Lots to ponder here, and all very feasible.



#37 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 07 July 2000 - 04:46 AM

I think that the important thing to consider here is that when using permanent death in a game, it's assuming that the game will not be combat-centric.

Not every single player will be loading up on weapons to go slay some monsters. There would be other things in which to partake. Politics, socializing perhaps

...but if a character does choose to go into combat, there would be a hell of a chance the player is taking.

And the player would probably have a good reason for combat...

i.e. revenge, protection, self-defense...not just cause it's fun to see someone's blood splatter

These reasons for combat would induce much more role-playing in the game. You'd be fighting for a reason, and hopefully, the rest of the game would be designed the same way...you'd be doing things in the game for an acutal in-game _reason_



"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." --William Blake


Edited by - Nazrix on July 7, 2000 11:54:14 AM

#38 Dak Lozar   Members   -  Reputation: 122

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 07 July 2000 - 05:43 AM

How would you treat a character who dies at the hand of another character?
If life is this delicate, who would be adventuring? The game would become a giant 3d (or iso) chat area.
I don''t think permanent death is the answer. If a player loses a character that he has been playing for a extended time period... what will he do next? Create another character? Or, quit playing?

There must be better ways to increase the players awareness that life is precious and should be treated as such.





Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

#39 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 07 July 2000 - 06:01 AM

This leads to a more important question than whether to have permanent death:

Can we think of something better for characters to do besides killing or mundane work (like in UO)?

quote:

How would you treat a character who dies at the hand of another character?



In the game I envision, the society would take care of this itself.

If the player was killed in cold-blood, then human-controlled players would be hired to avenge the players death perhaps.

or

A human-controlled ruler would dispatch his knights to dispose of the murderer.

Granted that player would still have to create a whole new character, but the killer would probably be killed eventually.

If someone doesn't want to be killed, they would stay in the protection of a city like in real-life.


This leads me back to the original question:
What will the player do while in the confines of the city?

"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." --William Blake

Edited by - Nazrix on July 7, 2000 1:04:14 PM

#40 Dak Lozar   Members   -  Reputation: 122

Like
Likes
Like

Posted 07 July 2000 - 06:16 AM

quote:
Original post by Dak Lozar

[quote] Original post by Dak Lozar

[quote] Original post by Nazrix
This leads to a more important question than whether to have permanent death:

Can we think of something better for characters to do besides killing or mundane work (like in UO)?


quote:
How would you treat a character who dies at the hand of another character?

quote:

In the game I envision, the society would take care of this itself.

If the player was killed in cold-blood, then human-controlled players would be hired to avenge the players death perhaps.

or

A human-controlled ruler would dispatch his knights to dispose of the murderer.

Granted that player would still have to create a whole new character, but the killer would probably be killed eventually.

If someone doesn''t want to be killed, they would stay in the protection of a city like in real-life.


OK, I got you... sounds good.
Maybe this raises another question Prisons?? Do they exist?
quote:

This leads me back to the original question:
What will the player do while in the confines of the city?
~snip~



Hmmm... what will the player do while in the confines of the city? Hmmm... LOL, that is a good question. What I do now, In UO, is gather food, and other resources that I need and then head back out to the guild house. Not a lot of my time is spent in the city. I suspect this isn''t true for a lot of people. In fact there is a guild that hangs out next to the East Bank in Britain on GL. They spar and chat... not sure what else they do.. but it appears that they are having fun




Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

Edited by - Dak Lozar on July 7, 2000 1:13:33 PM
Fixing nested quote errors






Old topic!
Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.



PARTNERS