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A program to fabricate and articulate a plausible interlude


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#21 kordova   Members   -  Reputation: 138

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Posted 12 October 2003 - 07:58 AM

quote:
Original post by cowsarenotevil
quote:
Original post by bishop_pass
Kind of a tough question - but I would be inclined to think that as long as you play, the realtime rule is in effect.



But then you''d get to a boring part, and you''d have to turn your game system off and on to skip to the next interesting part. Also, wouldn''t this work just as well with a human-generated storyline?

Requiring someone at the other end to constantly generate something for you doesn''t seem very wise an aspect of a game, not to mention that that person would most likely be effected by things they may have seen during that specific day etc. which may be detrimental to play.

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#22 Pouya   Members   -  Reputation: 869

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Posted 12 October 2003 - 08:00 AM

Actually, I have this graduate CS course titled "Knowledge representation and reasoning", and this seems very similar to the kind of stuff that I have to do for the reasoning part. Except that we code in prolog.

Remember 2 years ago when I was just getting started with programming AI in prolog and I couldn''t do tree pruning and posted here? Well, I''ve mastered that art now ^_^

#23 Monder   Members   -  Reputation: 993

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Posted 12 October 2003 - 08:00 AM

Well if you got to an end of an episode you''d get a screen going, "Congradulations you''ve finished episode: blah, do you wish to continue or save?" or something like that.

I think this sounds like a really good idea, though getting computer generated story lines may be rather hard (I know there''s AI research going on about computer generate story lines atm, I''m sure google will turn up someting).

#24 bishop_pass   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 12 October 2003 - 08:11 AM

quote:
Original post by Raduprv
On a serious note, I was thinking of doing something like that, for the quests in my game (random quests). Then I realised that the quality of computer generated quests doesn''t even coem close to real, human generated quests, so I gave up.
Given the implementation you proposed, I could see how you would believe that. I think one of the goals here is to explore an implementation, but I think the requirement for doing so is to look at the other thread I created about fictional character histories. By creating a custom fiction generator for each type of genre (or specific game) and taking heed of knowledge and symbolic methods as well as looking at AI scripts promoted by Roger Schank (not the scripting techniques used in game programming, which are an entirely different thing altogether), one could come up with an effective generator which could improve with each revision through simple addition.

#25 bishop_pass   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 12 October 2003 - 08:15 AM

quote:
Original post by cowsarenotevil
quote:
Original post by bishop_pass
Kind of a tough question - but I would be inclined to think that as long as you play, the realtime rule is in effect.



But then you''d get to a boring part, and you''d have to turn your game system off and on to skip to the next interesting part. Also, wouldn''t this work just as well with a human-generated storyline?
I''ve been a longtime proponent of a game intelligent enough to know what a lull is, and to generate something intense to happen. There are all kinds of intense things that a program can have waiting in the wings to throw at you, such as being mugged, a brawl breaking out (even if you''re a spectator), betting opportunities, something interesting to discover, etc. But before you get a preconceived notion of what I''m talking about, you''d have to learn about my ideas of Situation Creators, knowledge representation, etc., unless you already believe in what I''m saying.



#26 dede   Members   -  Reputation: 132

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Posted 12 October 2003 - 08:18 AM

This would make a GBA game. You could skimp on the story a bit, and it would allow the characters to be put into interesting situations as soon as the GBA is turned on.



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#27 cowsarenotevil   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2042

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Posted 12 October 2003 - 08:20 AM

No, I''ve actually been reading most of your posts, and think that that''s a good idea. It would be cool to have some methode of figuring out what the player likes, and then adding more of that element into the game.

#28 bishop_pass   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 12 October 2003 - 08:46 AM

So, to reinvigorate the subject at hand, the point here, is to devise an implementation that could fabricate a transitional piece of fiction between episodes. I''m an advocate of using Lisp type symbolic list like structures to encode knowledge, so even if you would want to code such a thing in C or C++, in the end, your toplevel view of the problem might be in a set of nested lists. Disagree if you wish, but please, no C++ arrays of RPG stats as we got in the last thread.

As far as specifically tackling such a problem, I believe the best way is to initially restrict the domain heavily, focusing on the methods necessary to reproduce a tiny subset of what you ultimately wish to accomplish. So, for starters, you might take the outcome of a particular episode, think of the setting for a new episode, think of an example of how the character got from episode one to episode two, and then derive with knowledge a methodology to reproduce that.

#29 bishop_pass   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 12 October 2003 - 02:32 PM

I think it''s time we further evaluated this subject.

#30 Extrarius   Members   -  Reputation: 1412

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Posted 12 October 2003 - 02:53 PM

Please take no offense, but I''m wondering what the point of this thread (and the others like it) is..? Are you asking for ideas, suggestions, or maybe help implementing such a thing? Are you just trying to get other people to consider the possibilities, or maybe trying to ''sell'' people on your ideas?

I think that if you could create an entirely ''random''(never the same twice, future depends on what the player did in the past, etc) game it would be pretty much the perfect game, but you need more than just history generation and fiction generation - you need a whole system of generating places, people, events, inventions, etc so that the game can at any time take the previous state and the actions of the player and generate a new scene that can contain anything real life does (if not more).

Imagine playing a game that is bigger than the real world - not difficult when it can generate anything and everything you should see when you should see it.

#31 bishop_pass   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 12 October 2003 - 03:09 PM

quote:
Original post by Extrarius
Are you just trying to get other people to consider the possibilities...
Mostly that, because, to be honest, I find most line of thoughts with regard to game programming pretty dull, stereotypical, and entrenched in conventional thinking.
quote:

- you need a whole system of generating places, people, events, inventions, etc so that the game can at any time take the previous state and the actions of the player and generate a new scene that can contain anything real life does (if not more).
People, yes, hence my other thread, but not necessarily places, and not necessarily inventions, depending on the genre.

#32 bishop_pass   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 03:23 PM

As an example, if we build our knowledge within our code to be specific to a particular genre, then we can draw upon all of the classical types of fictional stories we might want to use, and provide knowledge and the necessary props to realize those.

Some ideas should include revenge by a family member, starving in the desert, seeking employment, seeking lost treasure, robbing a stagecoach (being a highwayman), settling down and opening a shop for a time (not an example of something that one should play, but something that a character might have done inbetween episodes), getting injured in an accident, and so on.

#33 Raduprv   Members   -  Reputation: 997

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 03:31 PM

I am highly skeptical about a random background thing.
The best thing to do is provide a large number of different scenarios, and change places, names, dates, etc. in them.
This will look good at the beginning, but eventually the player will see the repetitions/patterns, which will make it frustrating.

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#34 bishop_pass   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 03:38 PM

quote:
Original post by Raduprv
I am highly skeptical about a random background thing.
I disagree. Unfortunately, few are putting forth the effort to change this.
quote:

The best thing to do is provide a large number of different scenarios, and change places, names, dates, etc. in them.
This will look good at the beginning, but eventually the player will see the repetitions/patterns, which will make it frustrating.
I disagree. First of all, your idea of what the best thing to do is regarding methodology isn''t all that different from what a person does when creating stories. Episodes only need justified filler for transitional continuity. A combined effort to create this, coupled with the fact that a player is unlikely to play, say, more than 100 (arbitray number) episides, should suffice.

Unfortunately, I only see your view encouraging you to not strive.

#35 Raduprv   Members   -  Reputation: 997

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 03:43 PM

I never said it is impossible, only that it would require a LOT of work (a team of dedicated, experienced programmers), and a very large database.
So far, attempts to create computer generated stories kind of failed. This things has to do more with AI, maybe some neuronal networks, and it is pretty much very advanced stuff.
I mean, of course, if you want to create a seamless storry, with no repetitions.

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#36 bishop_pass   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 03:49 PM

quote:
Original post by Raduprv
I never said it is impossible, only that it would require a LOT of work (a team of dedicated, experienced programmers), and a very large database.
Dude, we're not talking about writing War and Peace here. We're talking about small pieces of fiction amounting to three of four sentences. What you need is to stop arguing and start trying.
quote:

So far, attempts to create computer generated stories kind of failed. This things has to do more with AI, maybe some neuronal networks, and it is pretty much very advanced stuff.
First of all, it has nothing to do with neural networks. Everyone these days thinks neural networks are the answer. They're not (for this kind of stuff). Regarding the advanced nature of the stuff, it probably is to someone who learned C++ six months ago.
quote:

I mean, of course, if you want to create a seamless storry, with no repetitions.
There is no requirement for a seamless story. The requirement is for justified filler fiction and setups for episodes.



[edited by - bishop_pass on October 13, 2003 10:49:31 PM]

#37 bishop_pass   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 03:51 PM

The problem is that this type of programming is so different from what today''s coders learn and focus on. More attempts should be made at content creation code.

#38 Plasmadog   Members   -  Reputation: 205

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 04:04 PM

Out of curiosity Bishop, what sort of games do you normally play, and what do you think are the biggest shortcomings of current games?

#39 bishop_pass   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 04:13 PM

I don''t really play games much anymore. I suppose Thief was the last game that I really played and seemed to entrance me. The shortcomings of current games are their failures to live up to their potential.

#40 Plasmadog   Members   -  Reputation: 205

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 04:27 PM

quote:
Original post by bishop_pass
The shortcomings of current games are their failures to live up to their potential.

Well, OK, but that is practically the definition of the word shortcoming. I was hoping for something a bit more tangible. I gather that you would like the gaming experience to be far richer than it is now, but what, in your opinion, is the main way in which they fail to achieve this?
I''m just trying to put your idea in context, and knowing some of your thoughts on current games might give a better perspective on it.




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