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A program to fabricate and articulate a plausible interlude


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#101 intrest86   Members   -  Reputation: 742

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 08:51 PM

On a first note, stop calling everyone self defeating in such an antagonisitc way. It is like yelling at a depressed person that they should feel loved.

On topic, it seems as if the standard single player RPG is actually not the best arena for these ideas. In the arena of single player RPG the content creators can take all these factors into account without too many unknowns and create a rather rigid storyline that seems to play to the character.

From my perspective the true strength of these ideas would be in a realm where story content cannot be generated at game creation, and instead must evolve. In other words, it seems like a good way of injecting plot into the plotless, or MMORPGs. As I see it, one of the major problems with common day MMORPGs is that only a certain kid of person can find them appealing, since the sence of plot in this kind of game relies soley on the player. But what if a character lives life even when the player is not logged in?

Depending on the passage of time multiple levels of stories could be incorporated (ie, a long term story of setting up a business, or a short torm story of stumbling across a group of people). The stories could then serve to tie a person into a more concrete (Yet still very liquid) plot, possibly appealing to a larger subset of people. It also allows the programmers to foster elements of play often left to the player, such as social interaction (Story where you meet another player and form friendship/rivalry/deal).

Of course, the main limitation to such a scheme would be less about generating the story and more about storing the data about the past. Since the programmer has little to no control over the actions of a player while signed in, there are quite a few things that could happen that the programmer might want to keep track of for future reference. The more the programmer records, the more data he can cruch, and the more personalized and involved a story he can develop.

At the current day, I would say that the resolution of the previous data would still have to be pretty low, recording only overt or momentous actions. To deal with our present day inability to deal with a higher amount of data, accumalators could be substituted to allow us to at least have an approximation of the player''s persona displayed through the smaller actions we can''t record. As technology improves, the resolution can raise and lower dependence on the accumalation model. In many ways it would be like the weather system in needing exponential storage and processing power, however.

I come to all this through my own experience with MMORPGs. I am not really a power player, and always feel like I should be able to step away from the game for at least a week without coming back and feeling as if the entire world has passed me by. I assume that many people who are not MMORPG players are much like me, and that these story lines will icorporate the player more into the world.

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#102 bishop_pass   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 12:38 PM

cannelbrae,
Have you studied Roger Schank''s works, and read some of his books?

#103 bishop_pass   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 12:42 PM

quote:
Original post by intrest86
On topic, it seems as if the standard single player RPG is actually not the best arena for these ideas. In the arena of single player RPG the content creators can take all these factors into account without too many unknowns and create a rather rigid storyline that seems to play to the character.
Have you played Thief? The game was good, and it included interludes between gameplay. However, everyone''s story (saga, so to speak) was exactly the same. What I''d like to see, and I''m sure there are many others out there who feel the same, is to have everyone''s experience be different, not the same, and not fixed.

#104 Neoshaman   Members   -  Reputation: 170

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 04:24 PM

please don''t ignore me bishop!! you forget to flame me then i don''t know if what i say did make sense

do you think my post was helpful??

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

#105 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 05:03 PM

Is this something like Chris Crawfords Erasmatron it it?

http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/crawford.html

-ddn

#106 cannelbrae   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 06:25 PM

I haven''t actually. I may have missed something mentioned earlier in this thread -- any books in particular you would recommend? Unfortunately, I don''t have much time so I may not get to it in a while, but I will definitely add anything to my list.

#107 Zul   Members   -  Reputation: 542

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 02:20 AM

quote:
Original post by intrest86
On topic, it seems as if the standard single player RPG is actually not the best arena for these ideas. In the arena of single player RPG the content creators can take all these factors into account without too many unknowns and create a rather rigid storyline that seems to play to the character.




Although I think this could work well with large multiplayer games, I think the main benefits could still come into single player games. Take for example Diablo II. There are many different character classes, but the game plays out exactly the same for all of them. The NPC''s in town have slightly modified reactions (sometimes) to a player based on character type, but the difference is insignificant. What would have been great is if they had something like we''re talking about here, where inbetween monster slaying sessions your character is busy prepping for battle. Even if some of the NPC''s could recognize rare/unique armaments and comment on them, or perhaps talk about a monster you slayed and how it was the scariest horror that ever walked - something to engage the player a little bit more and tie them to the story. As it is, the NPC''s in that game are absolutely worthless after the first time through, except for buying items. Even something as simple as "You''ve sharpened your sword/axe/mace, reinforced your shield, and buckeld your helm, you are prepared for battle." (Ok, that''s a pretty weak example).

#108 intrest86   Members   -  Reputation: 742

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 06:39 AM

But in single player games, those in between connections can be written by the game writers with the specific purpose that they be run. There is no need for a random generation, only people who play the game over again would ever benefit from the feature, and the truth is a lot of people that play games twice expect to get the same game over again and those that don''t would need a much larger change in story to make it worthwhile.

This method would effectively remove control of plot in a single player game from the creators, even though as a medium control of the plot is not only essential but the default. The reason I see this working in MMORPGs is because the game creators actually have nearly no control over the plot for each individual character, only the world as a whole. Your ideas could actually build their control of those plots, while still giving players freedom if they decide to go on their own track.

#109 bishop_pass   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 03:13 PM

quote:
Original post by intrest86
But in single player games, those in between connections can be written by the game writers with the specific purpose that they be run. There is no need for a random generation, only people who play the game over again would ever benefit from the feature, and the truth is a lot of people that play games twice expect to get the same game over again and those that don''t would need a much larger change in story to make it worthwhile.
All assumptions, and ones I disagree with.


#110 intrest86   Members   -  Reputation: 742

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 07:00 PM

Take "Zelda: Windwaker" for example. After playing through the game once you are given the opportuinty to play through a second time, but only wearing your pajamas. The interactions with characters change because of the lack of real clothing, but it is hardly enough to make me want to play again if I wasn''t alreayd planning to. To make someone like me actually continue playing would take more than just slight variations along the path of the plot, it would take a new plot completely.

However, I imagine the pajama scenario was enjoyed by those who wished to play the game over again anyway. It added a slightly new element without drastically changing the game they had come to expect. And since Windwaker was a single player RPG, the creators had complete control over the changes the pajama scenario would cause the game, something that would be lacking in an auto-generated interlude.

#111 kordova   Members   -  Reputation: 138

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 07:21 PM

quote:
Original post by intrest86
But in single player games, those in between connections can be written by the game writers with the specific purpose that they be run. There is no need for a random generation, only people who play the game over again would ever benefit from the feature...


Wouldn''t the game be more interesting, if you knew that it wasn''t all just a script? That you''re playing what could amount to a very different game than the designers ever even dreamed of? Even with a set of very closed schemas as BP calls them, isn''t the potential so much greater for such a game as opposed to scripted dialogues, actions, encounters and so forth?
quote:

This method would effectively remove control of plot in a single player game from the creators, even though as a medium control of the plot is not only essential but the default.

Why would that even matter? If the story comes out well is the game not still a success? Even so, it''s up to the creator what elements are present to be manipulated and interacted with.

#112 intrest86   Members   -  Reputation: 742

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 09:48 PM

K.I.S.S.

By throwing in another factor that can at most keep the story at the same level of quality as if someone had written it in the first place, you are really only leaving the story one way to go, and that is down.

That is why I think that it is best for a situation where the writer CAN''T write a plot for the character.

#113 kordova   Members   -  Reputation: 138

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 01:46 AM

quote:
Original post by intrest86
K.I.S.S.


I don't readily consider myself stupid, and why should anyone keep anything simple? Is that what you're looking for? A simple game?
quote:

By throwing in another factor that can at most keep the story at the same level of quality as if someone had written it in the first place, you are really only leaving the story one way to go, and that is down.


How do you know what quality will come from something that does at the present time exist? I think some of the "plots" in the latest games are horribly, obviously contrived and get incredibly tedious/dull quickly. In most games you have the obviously random encounters that offer nothing more than bloodshed and the occasional cliché in the form of a stand off with the boss type character that isn't entirely satisfying for the player. Unless of course mindless, obviously scripted bloodshed at the cost of anything else brings satisfaction.
quote:

That is why I think that it is best for a situation where the writer CAN'T write a plot for the character.

I think it is worthwhile to at the very least experiment with its capabilities and offerings as opposed to just following the staple 10,000 game making tutorials and books without question.

There is no harm in spending a little time thinking about something.

[edited by - kordova on November 1, 2003 8:49:33 AM]

#114 intrest86   Members   -  Reputation: 742

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 02:54 AM

Exactly, I am thinking about it right now.

So, say we bave the lattice of all storyline plots, where each supremum is a better plot and each infinum is worse. A good writer is completely aware that some plots are better than others, and will attempt to move up the lattice as much as possible. We can discount bad writers, because that is like considering this program we are talking about being bad too.

Now, since the program will do something different for each person that plays through, each person has some probability of where they will be placed on the lattice of plot. It becomes obvious that some will be placed lower than others, it is impossible to reach an optimum storyline.

As for "KISS", it is a phrase meant to tell people to keep it simple, not an insult (look back a bit, insults are the thigs bishop_pass uses agaist people that don''t catch on). It is not that complex things are neccesarily bad, but the more complex they are the more that can possibly go wrong. In a single player game that cannot approach that supreme plot, as shown above with lattice theory, little to no improvement has been made but as good deal of effort has gone into it. It isn''t a promising risk analysis.

#115 bishop_pass   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 03:27 AM

quote:
Original post by intrest86
Now, since the program will do something different for each person that plays through, each person has some probability of where they will be placed on the lattice of plot. It becomes obvious that some will be placed lower than others, it is impossible to reach an optimum storyline.
If there was ever such a thing as an optimum storyline, we''d only have one book in this world. right?

And you''re ignoring something much more important: This idea is here as a possible replacement or evolution of games where the player is left to carry forward every moment of a game; in effect defining his own character''s story, but in reality, playing out the boring aspects of his character to boot.

I think you''re really missing the point.



#116 Neoshaman   Members   -  Reputation: 170

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 05:37 AM

the only one way to improve with this disscussion is to come with a demo, i think i could cut in gamedev to make an experimental global demo (instead of the local of my game)
then we would discuss about the flaws of the engine and method
i could take 1 mounth or more (beeing alone that''s hard)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

#117 kordova   Members   -  Reputation: 138

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 05:55 AM

quote:
Original post by Neoshaman
the only one way to improve with this disscussion is to come with a demo, i think i could cut in gamedev to make an experimental global demo (instead of the local of my game)
then we would discuss about the flaws of the engine and method
i could take 1 mounth or more (beeing alone that's hard)



I'm doing some work, though it's rather novice at that, in the related thread here. (And other concerns aside, I must admit it's rather fun.)

[edited by - kordova on November 1, 2003 12:59:00 PM]

#118 Neoshaman   Members   -  Reputation: 170

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 02:58 PM

hey! wait! where is this topic kordova???
i have to red it and if there is another topic like that i could help, actually my engine is have compnent of character too

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

#119 kordova   Members   -  Reputation: 138

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 03:07 PM

quote:
Original post by Neoshaman
hey! wait! where is this topic kordova???
i have to red it and if there is another topic like that i could help, actually my engine is have compnent of character too


The word "here" in my above post is a link to the other topic. It''s in the lounge though it probably belongs here in the AI I suppose.

Please tell me about your engine.

#120 Neoshaman   Members   -  Reputation: 170

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 05:47 PM

well just before have you read in the previous page the post i have made???, it''s for correct some flaws (cause to english translation) and having comments about (it''s my last post on the over page)

well i have start learning lisp with this topic and have better undertsanding about it with the other you came from then i don''t that much about it (lisp)
actually i''m not a programmer but an artist, programmation is a tool that use sometime like i would use a pen or a printer, then i learn on-the-fly what i have to know for each specific problem i''m getting into (not a specific behaviour towards programmation)
i have a very flexible analytical mind and broke things easily in abstract piece to handle them more easily

about my engine it''s not a specific engine for problem which was post here but a tool to test my theory about dinamic story
this is a result of as a gamedesigner i think story was meaningless for game (not much that my own opinion) and games was inherently about choregraphia, then to expose this matter i have start study about story (more than structure, also cultural meaning as ex) to know what i''m talking about and find connection with story and game, then fullfil the problematic and expose my idea since i will be suppose knowing the matter in the whole

then 2 mouth ago i ve start a project of dating sims (inspiration from tokimeki memorial) because this genre was the closest to dinamic story into narratives (they already get all the basics) but i have evolve with my theori into a kind of social adventure game (and my preference> dude it''s about date! i''m not that flexible i couldn''t do it)
with this project i have gotten a background material to test my idea and start to translate the theory into some pseudo code and structure

the engine would be able to handle gestion of character which have to be autonomous and respond emotionnly to event within a dramatic structure need
this lead to content generation with fixed content
but while working on i have seen that the model could be expand to content generate on the fly and try to add it into the scenario
some unexpect side effect is some improvement into world representation for agents and learning, while learning is emergent and no need implementation , i will keep the world presentation in his previous stage (it could be expand into an interesting scale but the project don''t need and couldn''t handle this, this also expand a lot the learning efficienty)
the previous page is a bit of the world representation but not all (there is some connection with emotionnal meaning that is the true originality of my system)
but i try to kept the engine the more simple possible

one month ago after put down the basics, i ve gotten a net connection and start some research other the net (wich lead me here too) and surprisingly i have find there is a lot of work like mine and not far from what i have plan but with slight difference
and i have learn about some wheel i have reinvent without even knowing it (i does not know about neural network, but my emotion sys work fairly like those, with semantics and property of object as entry and with a FuFSM as an output with a feedback control to the neural, the suposed amelioration is to use a markov chain algorythme to build semantics and object rather than having them build from start, aka the sys handle learning knowledge)
the gameplay is simple and the communication go only through act and expression (agent talk only to player to give him information, there is no gestion about hi level semantics communication like natural language, not even a multiple choice dialogue, only emotional communication through action)

the story is emergent and use the theory to control this emergent (by thinking of story as balance force of conflict, like an rts the system try to balance force with drama)
much more like ant intelligence which are supervising by managing the pheromone in the drama area (inhibit or reinforce)

but i could do some change to handle more semantics construction
with knowledge base

well it was plan to worked even on a log like rpg maker then it would not be difficult to create it on another platform language (not really done on rpgmk then)

oh! if someone knows about good link about bayesan network knowledge and some good mathematical site where i could learn about statistic easyly (french recommended then i''m in english topic then english is fine too)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>




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