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A program to fabricate and articulate a plausible interlude


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#121 kordova   Members   -  Reputation: 138

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Posted 09 November 2003 - 08:19 AM

Do you envision a system similar to the one you proposed for the character generation to be used in generating these scenarios etc? I''m sort of stumbling as I try not to make certain assumptions but I think I see a heavy relationship between what I''ve done in terms of generating characters etc with this.

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#122 Neoshaman   Members   -  Reputation: 170

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Posted 09 November 2003 - 01:38 PM

kordova you are talking to whom?? me or bishop?
well, my engine is a whole more complete, i have made it before knowing ''explicitly'' about semantics programmation and other technics

but i''m overflowing english now, i think i would make it in my own way rather than trying to learn more about lisp and knowledge (all doc is in english, and in 3mouths now i have learn a lot of things, gotta explode)

i think you can do it pretty in the same way (if i have understood it well) whith throwing character in a context, having track of event, and use these event as an entry to generate new context with symbolic operation (use non straight forward method, as ex vampire life at night, you can use a operation whish banish night (an operation which reverse the logical waited, but don''t overuse or the system could be paralyze itself) and then create new set to explain it and create a new organisation from vampire like life in deep cavern and made trade with evil human, i use to do thing like this to generate universe)

my engine work in 3 layer, the first layer decide of a thema, which is the underlign of the experiance and broke it into a balance of force which is output to character generation as a basis (constrain the build of attribute to fit the balance of force) and then character action are manage by the story manager which constrain action to make a sense of story according to given rule (one action per time for ex, not create content within the player point of view (knowledge as well, the game as a journal which keep track of event which happen to the player), or produce story state action (constrain to introduction, constrain to developpement, constrain to conclusion), etc...)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

#123 kordova   Members   -  Reputation: 138

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Posted 09 November 2003 - 05:58 PM

Haha, I was posing the question to Bishop, though I''d certainly be interested to see your work as it progresses.

#124 Neoshaman   Members   -  Reputation: 170

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Posted 10 November 2003 - 09:54 AM

hello, bishop and kordova could you check here too, it's a previous thread which could be interesting, mostly the last comment...
here.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[edited by - Neoshaman on November 10, 2003 4:55:16 PM]

#125 kordova   Members   -  Reputation: 138

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Posted 11 November 2003 - 09:58 AM

Which comment exactly?

#126 Neoshaman   Members   -  Reputation: 170

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Posted 11 November 2003 - 06:42 PM

well, the topic was a kind of sum up in my mind, i have forget that there so much and a lot get out of the basic we need
what i have aiming at while giving the link was about the meaning layer (meta-representation) to affect the knowledge flow (if i express myself), i think it would be interesting in the interlude engine, mostly to oriant goal of agent in a coherent direction (and maybe in character generation to provide coherent goal, desire and need then personality) in orfer to avoid too mechanically build content

but maybe i have miss the real goal??

i have alos start thinking about the requirement notion to think about dinamics and influance of dinamics with knowledge base (since the interlude as to deal with some dinamics as a story)

i have not care of this from my engine since my engine was build with implicitly dinamics rule and semantics was at the other ends of it, while here we start with the semantics and dinamics lies in the ends where i have start

while dealing with this thread i just realize that i would have more insight getting the problem from both ends

did you understand what i mean?? did this make sense?
i would like you (bishop and kordova) to point at my flaws if possible and/or give more hints and i wull share how things i would find while toying with those notion...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

#127 kordova   Members   -  Reputation: 138

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Posted 16 November 2003 - 09:27 AM

Could you show/tell me more of your project and the document you allude to?

#128 bishop_pass   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 16 November 2003 - 04:26 PM

quote:
Original post by kordova
Do you envision a system similar to the one you proposed for the character generation to be used in generating these scenarios etc? I''m sort of stumbling as I try not to make certain assumptions but I think I see a heavy relationship between what I''ve done in terms of generating characters etc with this.
I think it stands to reason that plausible interludes are likely inhabited by fictional characters, and everything is indeed intertwined.



#129 Neoshaman   Members   -  Reputation: 170

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 05:19 PM

i'm come back
i have extract meaningful things from my work to be post
it's a little beyond the scope of simple interlude and come to full generation of story as far as i can go with it (subjectivity and creation is my prime target)

here is the analysis
actually story generation rely on random content make coherent with a set of rule to acheive story, but if random is good for the sake of diversity and rule for the sake of coherent it's not complete enough to make interesting story (objectively), well as far computer has made thing the same complain emerge, the flatness of the content but if thinks it's due to the mechanical aproach of the problem since it's the major problem to overcome first and what we have to focus the major time
then as a art student i will add that most artist atteimpt in their world >>> conjuring of meaning
so far as humanity made art it was to express something, then art must have a meaning, meaning would be define as the relation between us and the world and between element of this world.
story then is a language to say something, this mean a syntax, the syntax is what encode the message, but analysis of the syntax doesnot help about the message, it's the message which give form to the syntax

then from actual story generation i have use one more layer >> theme (there is a higher level i would call idea which come from the experiance and lead to the message then the theme but it's not the actual focus)
what is a theme?? the theme is what a story is about, the message, the content, the experiance to share aka the SUBJECT, whithout subject the story as no focus aka no interest, a story is tied to a set of value to express, even simple one
what the theme does for the story?? it tells its problematic and then induce the dramatic tension, the problematic as to be respond and every element of the story is choose to underlign every aspect of the problematic, the theme create the discursive of the story and by the thesis antithesis create the conflict which would ended up in the conclusion (the response of the problematic), the theme create the balance of force and is responsible of all the story
the theme is express by a single question or sentence (easy> good and evil, another one could be are we important in the universe scale? or else freedom)

from the theme everythings fold, the way we choose the character, the shape of the setting, action which could be take, events which would happen and place where we would have to go...
thethings we have to understand is that all these things are symbol and sign (they convey meaning)to tell the theme and them as an articulation of the message in a syntax which the story structure
hitchcock says "remove all the mundane and you will have a great story" or something like that, what is the mundane?? i would define the mundane as everything which is out of the topic (theme), then if the story is about mundane thing we have to remove all the heroic out of place (send into the background) the theme direct the focus, it emphazise thing about the topic while inhibit other things (well they are still here but in background or else it would not be beleivable if things act out their nature and could add a kind of depth like things is living out of the focus)
theme layer is responsible for general direction and must always deal with abstract content (love, humanity, poverty, war etc... general and universal,we would know why later) and also choose the tone and the genre

under the theme i have design three object which use the ouput of the theme processor as input (note: that the theme processor has not to be absolutly code, if the designer can do the job, everything is not to forget the importance of the theme layer)
the first object is the character processor, i would discuss it in the proper thread
the second object is the setting processor
and the third is the dna (dinamic narration automaton) which is in charge of the telling

the two first share the same layer and are build together
let's talk of the setting builder
once he theme is generate, the theme builder take the output and process the abstract theme into concrete theme
what is a concrete theme??
concrete theme is the actualisation of the abstract theme in the specificity of the settings, the settings which is the time, the place , the situation etc... (ex citizen kane a abstract theme is the seek of power and the concrete theme is becoming THE first man of press, ok there is another abstract theme among this one in the movie related to his young time, but, heh, i guess you pick the point, another one would be love (abstract) in the conquest of the farwest)
in one word >> it shape the environnement where the action would take place in order to kept the focus by using basic unit in a meaningful syntax, basic unit would be choose according to their value in a context (context and syntax is important a < b is not the same as b < a even with the same element)

then now we have the narration engine (dna stupid but it's just me)
once the setting is choose and the agent set, the story can begin
all story has a basic structure in 3 part (but we can have also the hoolywood 9part, which expand a little but 3 is really the basic)
the first part is the exposition
give an idea of the situation and presentation of important thing (the theme, preparation of the drama, presentation of the balance of force, the pov,the ambiant, etc...)

after that came the main story itself
the story begin with a crisis (a)which lauch the main action and finish with the paroxysme (b), can be define as the path from (a)to (b)
here is all the work, the dna must keep track of all action, have to kept the coherence of the story, and keep it all with the theme, he is responsible of the generation of content and scene and the organisation in a meaningful sequence, has to maintain action and manage agent through general direction (mostly by inhibit reinforce decision and objective, or by changing their state/fct), manage the tone of each sequence as well, and manage the information gathering to the player (by playing with the focus) all root with the player action and the theme restriction
everything must be the expression of the theme, all action is a related to the message and drive to the response gradually, at each step the tension must increase the unstability of the force state must increase to a dead end (paroxysme) where the conflict is at his maximum point and fill all the story space and could no more be avoided, he is the absolute expression of the message as a question, and then has to be respond in the final conflict where there is no certainty until the end of the conflict which would be the answer (or one of the possible answer) to the conflict,
the dna work the a schema of action and balance of the world which represent the state of the story (actually this schema is use with a hierachy, with the general force shema to the end character schema in each force in the balance and sub force as well which help manage the whole and retreive information, he kept also a profile of the player to plan next action to take, and work like something like an RTS for planning and a chatterbot for semantics )
the 3rd part is the conclusion and is built with the outcome of conflict as a answer to the problematic
actually their is one main goal define from the beginning set with theme, and which is scatter to sub goal in order to acheive the main goal, these are sequence and have a unity of action and semantics, they has the same 3part structure as the main goal but are smaller, they must be semantics unit and are compose with scene (unity of place and time, well mostly) they are also place to sub theme within the main theme and help deepen the action, meaning, character, setting, etc..
they have also internal conflict and obstacle

well the whole system is based HEAVILY on database, lisp freak would like it
i have try to make it the most general possible, we have just to find the basic unit of each part and system and give them a semantic value unit as well

any comments?? what do you think about it??
hell it was hard because there is a lot of specific term i could'nt translate, then it can seem a little confuse (on my book , i have write it with far more detail...)

check the other thread for fictionnal character (sooner i'm tired)
oh, i will come also with a post to concretly respond on the main question of bishop >>> interlude in the simplest way

oh i will drop for a while with this (after posting) i have to focus on other matter >_< i will restart a try to find simple way to do the same in less detail fashion but still enjoyable (dinamic story using hierarchical fms only)
and i have to try to implement as well, speaking is good but making is better

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[edited by - Neoshaman on December 3, 2003 4:02:23 PM]

#130 Infinisearch   Members   -  Reputation: 169

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Posted 02 December 2003 - 10:12 PM

Wow 7 pages, and no one has mentioned

Oluseyi''s Narrative Interpolation thread
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=75556

or

Your (Bishop Pass''s) old Annotated Objects which Drive World Behavior thread

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=75762

trying to get fresh perspectives i guess.

Bishop I never asked but does your username have some meaning? is it a chess move or a character in a book or something?



#131 Neoshaman   Members   -  Reputation: 170

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Posted 05 December 2003 - 05:44 PM

hello

(edit: notice i keep thing general here, since english became painful to explain it and inaccurate, and also i have more detail in my book yet)
ok what i have throw a abstract scheme about element in use to generate story, but to use them we have to indentify and break it into practical basic unit until we have data class to process with

one of these useful things is the "action schema" (schema actentiel in french don't know in english the exact term )


edit: oups i have make a big mistake here destinaire=destinateur !=destinataire

let's have a definition of term (there is which still remain in french sorry )

relation subject/object
>>>>subject is what which engage the action (can something abstract or more than a character, ex the dna engine, abstract idea, a force in the balance, a ring (!), an organisation etc...)
>>>>object is the objective (person, idea, thing, state etc...)

relation destinateur/destinataire
>>>>the destinateur (the sender) is that of which or what depend that the subject obtains the object
>>>>the destinataire (the recipient) is that or that for which or what depend that the subject wants the object

relation helper/opponent
>>>>the helper (ally) is that which help the subject to obtain the object
>>>>the opponent is that which oppose the subject to obtain the object

this the basic unit of action and story
help in the analysis of agent action and could appraise by the dna to build the whole story state and it's also this kind of unit which is build for the story generated and be broke the into lower unit, actually i think it's a spinal bone of the whole engine and made some link with ai based programmation (goal orianted) the fact is by a process betwenn hi level and low level schema by the system buil the story

any comments???

the other important units is the character i will discuss soon in the character engine



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[edited by - Neoshaman on December 5, 2003 12:48:49 AM]




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