118 replies to this topic

[wyrd]

Disclaimer: This is not a which language is better post, please refer to one of the other 20 million threads on the subject. I''ve been out of the loop for a while, simply because I got busy with school and then finals. However, when I was frequently reading these forums, it was mostly C++ with a little bit of C# (people curious in the language). I even remember a time when C# was frowned upon and everyone just blatantly said "C++ is better." Now it seems almost backwards. C# threads left and right, and I''m hard pressed to find anything on C++. Have professionals started using C# to develop their games, or is this just a common trend for new folks and hobbiest? What exactly did I miss while I was gone?

[Agony]

I''ve seen a reasonable number of C# threads, yes, but C++ still seems to be what is typically expected. If someone asks a question about what code would look like to do this or that, but don''t specify a language, a good number of people will [accidentally] assume C++ (myself included); most of the time it doesn''t matter, because C++ was what the person was asking about anyway. C++ is still the standard, but it does seem that C# is getting more common acceptance and interest than before. I myself might try to get my boss to get VS 2003, so I can learn .NET and the new VB and C#. I''ll still like my C++ though, I''m sure.

[Thygrrr]

I personally dislike C# very much, and think it is utterly redundant as there is not a noticeable difference to Java (from my viewpoint, at least).

So, I''ll probably be one of those who stick with C++, which is a pretty good language (though far from perfect and on the bottom line worse than C#... which has its definitive upsides)

The Popularity discussion is far from decided yet, though on Microsoft Platforms, I expect C# to surpass C++ in the next years.

For Game Development, I don''t know. Probably the ease of use of C# makes it more popular with the newbies.


Moritz Voss
spirit.link.studios
www.optionoverkill.com

[deathtrap]

quote:

---

Original post by Agony
I myself might try to get my boss to get VS 2003, so I can learn .NET and the new VB and C#. I''ll still like my C++ though, I''m sure.

---

You don''t need VS 2003 to use C#/VB and do any .NET programming.
There are other IDE''s out there, and the C#/VB compilers are free to use.

[Max_Payne]

quote:

---

I even remember a time when C# was frowned upon and everyone just blatantly said "C++ is better."

---

I have been here for over 3 years and I don't remember any of that. I remember that many people always said "no language is better, each has its advantages, pick your own"... However, I remember that people who expressed that they didnt like C#, at any time, were frowned upon.

It has been getting more popular. Its still a relatively new language, and the "its new, and therefore automagically better" factor still accounts for it, even today. Some people like it, and think it makes them more productive... Personally, I think what people like about C# is not the language, which is not that innovative, but rather the winforms... Which replace the neglected and awful win32 API.

I personally don't like the whole "the pointers are the source of all evil" philosophy. I think people need to realise that the source of all bugs is not in the programming languages, but rather incompetence, negligence, procrastination and the "WE MUST DELIVER THIS SOFTWARE SUPER FAST" type of pressures.

Does C# have a future? Of course it does.... Microsoft has invested so much in it, and is progressively dropping support for other languages (the win32 API will most likely not be updated). To develop in a decent manner on windows, people will eventually be forced to use C#, and they will. People will follow microsoft, as usual.

---

Looking for a serious game project?
www.xgameproject.com

[edited by - Max_Payne on May 25, 2004 8:56:25 PM]

[clayasaurus]

It is not surprising to see hobbiests want to use a language that is cleaner and easier to use than c++. As a hobbiest, I don''t care about speed as much as I care about maintaining my project and writing good clean reusable code that I can write a simple game with. No hobbiests are writing the next doom 3, and speed isn''t as much as an issue as maintainability is for us.

That said, I have chose my own alternative to c++. (http://www.digitalmars.com/d/). Why did i choose D? because I like it. Why do people use c# or any other language than c++? because they like it better.

[dmikesell]

quote:

---

Original post by clayasaurus
It is not surprising to see hobbiests want to use a language that is cleaner and easier to use than c++. As a hobbiest, I don''t care about speed as much as I care about maintaining my project and writing good clean reusable code that I can write a simple game with.

---

Which of course is possible with C++. Languages don''t write clean or dirty code, programmers do.

[haro]

quote:

---

Original post by dmikesell
Languages don''t write clean or dirty code, programmers do.

---

Preprocessor definitions/macros, bloated/obscure keywords, repulsive template syntax and stl overuse sure do help in writing dirty code though.

[Max_Payne]

quote:

---

Original post by haro

quote:

---

Original post by dmikesell
Languages don't write clean or dirty code, programmers do.

---

Preprocessor definitions/macros, bloated/obscure keywords, repulsive template syntax and stl overuse sure do help in writing dirty code though.

---

In C++, the use of preprocessor definitions can be restricted to include guards. I don't know what keywords are possibly bloated and obscure (mutable is the only one I can think of, but even there, it makes sense) ? Are you thinking of the linux shell As for template syntax, its easy to understand, wheres the problem? And STL, how can you overuse it, its there to help you!

---

Looking for a serious game project?
www.xgameproject.com

[edited by - Max_Payne on May 26, 2004 11:35:36 AM]

[dmikesell]

I love the preprocessor for certain things. For instance...

#ifdef DEBUG
#define DEBUG_PRT(args) printf args
#define ASSERT(cond) assert(cond)
#else
#define DEBUG_PRT(args) 
#define ASSERT(cond)
#endif

DEBUG_PRT and ASSERT compile away to nothing in my release version, and the #ifdef is in one place. I don''t see what''s so nefarious about that.

[Max_Payne]

Doesn''t assert() already compile to nothing in release...

---

Looking for a serious game project?
www.xgameproject.com

[The Reindeer Effect]

quote:

---

Original post by Thygrrr
I personally dislike C# very much, and think it is utterly redundant as there is not a noticeable difference to Java (from my viewpoint, at least).

---

I see it more as C# is what Java should have been.

quote:

---

For Game Development, I don''t know. Probably the ease of use of C# makes it more popular with the newbies.

---

Or more popular with those who find ease of implementation a good thing (a common notion among some of the more verbose software engineers, such as Martin Fowler, Kent Beck, and even those dastardly GoF guys).

[Keith Riskey]

Over the past year to year and a half, not only have I begun doing most of my hobbyist work in C#, but the game programming I do for my day job has begun moving to C# as well...

I bear no ill will towards any programming language, but C# is an absolute pleasure to develop software in and right now it''s my favorite.

[dmikesell]

quote:

---

Original post by Max_Payne
Doesn''t assert() already compile to nothing in release...

---

Looking for a serious game project?
www.xgameproject.com

---

Probably. I have my own custom assert function, however, that I call in my ASSERT macro (not shown in my last post).

[EvilSteve]

IMO, C# is Microsoft''s attempt to divide the Java crowd and deal a blow to Sun. I would rather speak in a language that the entire industry has standardized upon and is independant of any company, than speak in a language that one company controls and could easily change or make obsolete for their own gains. This is why I prefer C++ over both C# and Java.

[Onemind]

I generally use C++ over C#, mainly because of pointers (I use quite a lot of them). If I want a languge that takes care of pointers behind-the-scenes, I''ll use VB. I really think that Python, Ruby, and possibly Lua will end up being the next big language(s).

[neurokaotix]

quote:

---

Original post by EvilSteve

IMO, C# is Microsoft's attempt to divide the Java crowd and deal a blow to Sun. I would rather speak in a language that the entire industry has standardized upon and is independant of any company, than speak in a language that one company controls and could easily change or make obsolete for their own gains. This is why I prefer C++ over both C# and Java.

---

I doubt C# was developed <edit>just</edit> to spite sun.

MindEngine Development | E-Commerce Business Architecture

[edited by - neurokaotix on May 26, 2004 4:11:27 PM]

[Arild Fines]

quote:

---

Original post by Onemind
I generally use C++ over C#, mainly because of pointers

---

That''s a rather lame reason.

Pointers are a tool - a rather crummy tool at that. If you can achieve what you want without them, what''s the point of clinging onto such a low-level concept?

[EvilSteve]

You''re using memory addresses no matter what language you''re using. It''s just a matter of whether or not the language thinks you should have access to them. In C++, you have the option to use them or not use them. In other languages, this decision is made for you.