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A unique (hopefully) magic system idea....


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#21 Solthar   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 August 2000 - 05:44 PM

Turn Players into programmers? I sure hope not - I want to make the system so easy that a monkeys fith-removed-cousin-that-is-half-gerbil can do it!

What do you think of a script like this?

//Solthars lightning orb
NAME Amna la githa
SPHERE air
ASPECT lightning

OBJECTSIZE 0.5
OBJECTVELOCITY 10

OBJECTTARGET other

// Solthars Fireball Swirl shocker
NAME Shokun sa ma na //Required - name of spell
SPHERE fire
ASPECT flame

PLAYERACTION point //optional - defines animation of mage during cast, defaults to none

OBJECT sphere //optional - if not specified, defaults to sphere
OBJECTSIZE 0.5 //optional - if not specified, defaults to 1
OBJECTVELOCITY 10 //optional - if not specified, defaults to 0
OBJECTORIGIN MyHands //optional - defaults to MyHands
OBJECTTARGET other //optional - defaults to other
OBJECTVERTANGLE 0 //angle modifier, optional - defaults to 0
OBJECTHORIZANGLE 0 //angle modifier, optional - defaults to 0

VERTICALPATHMODIFY circlesmall //optional - defaults to none
HORIZONTALPATHMODIFY none //optional - defaults to none

ALSOCAST Amna la githa // optional - searches through spellbook for ''lightning orb'' (case insensitive)
// Also, the "ALSOCASTDELAY time spell" is available for the delayed effects


Basicaly it goes like this: The mage says "Amna la githa Shokun sa ma na" while pointing his arm at the victim, and a ball of lightning is shot out with a orb of fire orbiting it - quite an interestign combo... The script does not do all that i would like it to do, but does allow some high level customization

Sponsor:

#22 dwarfsoft   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1210

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 02:18 AM

Saying such a long line of text would be rather tedious for a player. I prefered the symbol drawing that was mentioned in the DOC. I will probably add this to it anyway

-Chris Bennett ("Insanity" of Dwarfsoft)

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#23 Dæmin   Members   -  Reputation: 128

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 02:28 AM

First thing that I have to say is that this is a really good way of creating spells, and it adds depth to a game, but there are a few holes that should be patched up before its released...

like when a new guy walks into the world and there are so many spells around, the way to combat this is to make spells decay, and spheres (like deities) that are not sued, for example if someone''s scripted a lot of cool fire spells and every mage is using them then there''ll be a lot of fire based magic flying around, this would lead to less air and water magic etc (example!) and so those spheres would deteriorate, and fire would become more powerful and the magic and sphere would become more difficult to control thus eliminating some players. This would then make the players back off or something, and if not then eventually from overuse of the fire spells some fire elementals could appear and since almost everyone is using fire magic they would be unstoppable except for a few people that are using water and wind magic, thus the people (common folk, i.e. npc''s) would follow the water and air spheres more and a balance would eventually be restored...

This would also add some interesting plot elements into the game, since there''d be times of flood, volcanic eruptions, fire attacks, tornadoes etc... would really make a dynamic world, and the magicians would be feared, and sometimes hated for what their previous ppl have done etc...

Imagin a bunch of fighters lynching a local fire mage jsut because of a past grievence in another area a while ago... THat would also make more people hesitant to play with magic spheres etc...

Well that''s jsut my rant...

Dæmin
(Dominik Grabiec)
sdgrab@eisa.net.au

#24 dwarfsoft   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1210

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 02:32 AM

Now THAT deserves an originality mention in the doc... Any other ideas?

-Chris Bennett ("Insanity" of Dwarfsoft)

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#25 ahw   Members   -  Reputation: 262

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 02:42 AM

Daemin : excellent !

There is a good book that introduces this principle : "The magic of Recluce". Where the two big magic systems are Chaos and Order. They hate each other, but can''t live without each other.
It''s a good application of the natural balance that exist in most natural systems (I think it''s Fibonnaci that told about it first).
I never thought about the elementals idea, but that''s a definitely great idea. A bit like when Chaos becomes predominant in a region and strange mutations start to appear everywhere...

But shouldn''t the effectiveness of Fire (for example) decrease with the number of users ... a bit as if the amount of energy of an element was limited, and if more users used it, each would have less to play with ? Just a thought, but I will think a bit more about that one !

youpla :-P

#26 dwarfsoft   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1210

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 02:49 AM

Chaos and Order were the two blind gods in the beginning. One wove the strands of life and the other destryed them. The stuff was passed from one to the other in a continuous loop and so the universe was born... as Raymond E. Fiest explains in A Darkness at Sethanon (I think that was the book ).

Then came the lesser gods. They were formed out of the ''stuff'' that was torn appart. Ultimately resides chaos and order. There is a kind of hierarchy of orders in truth. You just rely on the god that you worship to give you the power. This means that you could make people worship a god to gain favours of spells. Fire would not be an effective spell against another fire-weaver because that would be in conflict with the god that you worship. So you are bound by which different gods you may worship at the same time (fire and water would be an obvious no-no... too much conflict). You may worship more than one god, but no god whom you worship is to be in conflict with any other whom you worship.

This would also allow for feuds between the gods that require you to triumph over the other gods magic.

Ideas?

-Chris Bennett ("Insanity" of Dwarfsoft)

Check our site:
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#27 Solthar   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 04:43 AM

Such is a good idea

The most used mages get weaker, the least used ones get stronger...

Hmmmm....

#28 C-Junkie   Members   -  Reputation: 1099

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 05:19 AM

About play balance.

Let the player define effect and the computer define cost. AND to create a spelll research should have to be done. So the old mage in the hut would have to already researched through past spells, tombs of lore ,etc. to figure out how to cast the spell.

So time must be spent researching how to combine different spheres into a spell. AND the cost of a fireball that would destroy a circular mile would be extremely large. (Say 1000mp, & a burning 11kt diamond in an alchemist''s oxygen solution)

and limiting the effect of fire when more people used fire? I still like the old AD&D idea of elemental planes of positive & negative energy, fire, water, air, and earth. Each spell tapped into the unlimited energy of that plane.

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#29 Whirlwind   Members   -  Reputation: 134

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 05:46 AM

Imagine, trying to code all of that, and I said earlier, any new discovery won''t be a discovery to anyone since the recipe will be on the net in a heartbeat which would defeat the point to finding new spell combinations. Elemental resource pools are a good idea - one dries up with over use as the other get stronger as they slowly regenerate. Soulbringer uses just the opposite approach as this - one element gets more powerful with use and establishes an imbalance.

Back on the idea of elemental balance, imagine terrible cold, wind, and earthquakes from the lack of fire.

On the idea of scripting spells, it would become a terrible pain in the wazzoo to have to script a new spell all the time. Most people are too lazy to type much less type an entire script. Most RPG''s assume that the script is good already. Now instead of using scripts, make the player keep ingredients for the spells sitting around. Limit the use of a spell by it''s cost to ingredients. Various ingredients cause different reactions/spells to be executed. This isn''t a new idea, one edition at lest of D&D had the optional requirements for the player to have the proper herbs and such available to cast a spell. It wasn''t used a lot.

#30 Dak Lozar   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 06:00 AM

quote:
Original post by Whirlwind

Imagine, trying to code all of that, and I said earlier,



That will definately be fun <BG>

quote:

any new discovery won''t be a discovery to anyone since the recipe will be on the net in a heartbeat which would defeat the point to finding new spell combinations. (snip)



We have been debating this very issue... and have come up with a way that may inpede the players from posting these to the web. Ultimately we have decided that with the number of spells that our MMORPG is going to have, if players want to post them... good luck





Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser

#31 pax   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 06:42 AM

I''ve got a similar idea I''ve been working on (View it here)

One new idea my system has that you may want to consider is variable effects. Specifically, the exact same spell formula will work somewhat differently based on caster, target and environment. This keeps newbies from picking up spells off the internet. They could kill themselves using someone else''s successfull formula. Mind you, this isn''t random, and experienced players will learn how to modify existing spells for their characters over time.


Pax

#32 SantaClaws   Members   -  Reputation: 144

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 06:45 AM

I personally don''t think that people will want to post their spells... well, some will. But I don''t think the majority will. Most people will probably want to hoard their new-found spells to themselves and friends -- ESPECIALLY if they are very powerful spells or spells that took a good bit of time to discover.

The thing I keep thinking of is the spellbook of some archaic mage ... a veritable treasure chest of knowledge. It would be a lot like in the DragonLance series and the books of Fistandantilus...

Another cool thing that could come of this magic system is customizable defense systems for peoples'' valuables. Traps and such... a mage could set up a customized spell or set of spells to protect his house. Very neat...

- SantaClaws

#33 Solthar   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 06:51 AM

I like the trap idea... Hmmm...


And about darkside - it's idea is almost so close to mine that is is frightning! perhaps we could pool resources, pax? Only true difference is that I make my sytem a bit more complex with the idea that for each sphere (you call it 'atoms') there are an arbitrary amount of aspects, so an air sphere spell can do anything from blow an object to electrocute it

Edited by - Solthar on August 22, 2000 1:55:49 PM

#34 SantaClaws   Members   -  Reputation: 144

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 07:01 AM

Effect and power of a spell is determined by the player's mastery of the according sphere, correct?

Also, with the traps ... you could have a property for the spell that determines when it is triggered -- immediately, a delayed time, or when something happens to the object it is targeted at.

For instance if you cast the spell on a sword, you could give it an on-equipped trigger, so that when the user equipped the sword, the sword would shock them or something. With some modification you could add some nice item/equipment protection spells ... its discouraging for someone to steal your stuff if they know it might cause their hand to rot away.

- SantaClaws

Edited by - SantaClaws on August 22, 2000 2:04:20 PM

#35 Solthar   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 07:57 AM

Effect is determined by player, power by sphere mastery/level. Interesting idea about triggers though - never thought of that...
maybee add something like this...

TRIGGERTYPE contact //radiussmall, radiuslarge, radius, equip, ..
TRIGGERACTION quickexpand // slowexpand, verticalcolumn, shockwave...

Edited by - Solthar on August 22, 2000 3:00:48 PM

#36 Whirlwind   Members   -  Reputation: 134

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 08:11 AM

Just remember - KISS, anyways, the spell combos will make it to the boards, just checkout planetdiablo and you can see that they are keeping a list of things you can use the horodic cube to make. Also, based on the numerous walkthroughs for games out there on the net you can expect to see recipe lists. Also, remember that if you have too many spell combinations with a spell effect for each resulting combination, plan on targeting a 128-bit 50,000mhz CPU and a 1GB Ultra Ultra video card as your baseline system because your artist will be at making those effects for a while.

#37 SantaClaws   Members   -  Reputation: 144

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 08:24 AM

When I said spell effect I meant the... um... (taps his brain, "Work, damn you!") ah, size of the effect?? A friend and I were talking about the system and thought that there would have to be some sort of precaution against characters creating enourmous complex effects for a small stupid spell... example:

Bob the Wizard is getting hungry. He pauses, raises his arms, and utters a long string of arcane syllables. Meteors start raining down from the skies, and a giant comet crashes down nearby. When the smoke clears, a giant crater sits in the ground, and in the middle: an apple.

Hehe.

Whirlwind: I would expect that a large amount of the effects could be generated using a particle system implementation in OpenGL or something. That way the users could customize their effects and its no extra work on the part of the artists.

- SantaClaws

Edited by - SantaClaws on August 22, 2000 3:31:21 PM

#38 runemaster   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 08:56 AM

I was thinking of using something similar for my sorcerers in my game Runemaster (not in Athalon, though).But here''s an idea I just had :
How about this - when the player creates a spell he must not only research, he also has to find some components for that research.Fors simple spells this would be easy -eg a mandrake root.But for powerful spells he''s have to go on a quest to find, say, some ancient scrolls.These quests could be randomly generated by the PC according to the spell''s power and type.

Runemaster
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#39 runemaster   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 08:59 AM

Ah ,another idea.I think not all options hould be available in the beginning."Fall from sky" for example could only be used after you''ve got 400 skill points at magc or something like that.There should also be special rare items like a "Scroll of Channeling" or something that allow you to add special effects to your spell, but only once.Imagine how sought after they''d become...a kind of legend, that would add to atmosphere.

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#40 runemaster   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 09:01 AM

Sorry for the typos but my fingers hurt.

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