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RPG + arcade == kiss of doom?


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#1 Wavinator   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1822

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 03:13 PM

Normally the RPG crowd like their games to be at a slower pace than action games. I''m trying to figure out why. How much arcade action will you tolerate in your RPG before you throw up your hands and look for another game? Jumping, running, clicking??? I know Diablo has a lot of click-action, but it''s not really considered an RPG in the same league as, say, Fallout. But say you had a Diablo + Fallout? For those who like deep RPGs, would arcade elements be a turn off? -------------------- Just waiting for the mothership...

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#2 Paul Cunningham   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 03:19 PM

Deep as in "Character Building"? or deeper stories. I think i''d like a arcade rpg if it was well done and i believe that it could be. I remember an arcade game called Dungeons and Dragons that i used to play a bit. I don''t know how much it could be classified as a rpg but it was good fun. I''d like to see some attempts at doing this again personally.

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#3 theRaskell   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 04:45 PM

I consider the line between RPG and action drawn when player actions determine the outcome as opposed to character skill. In Diablo, much of your success as a player is determined by your ability to quickly select skills and attack monsters. It''s a mix between character skill and player control. While Baldur''s Gate and Icewind Dale are real time games, it''s not at such a fast pace that rapid clicking and quick on the fly decision making is key to victory. Being able to pause and assign commands helps keep the game focused on character abilities as opposed to player abilities. Diablo is an action game heavily laced with the character building aspects of an RPG.

I personally like both types of games. I like character building in general. When I want roleplaying though, I turn to Pen & Paper, or several of the online MUDs I''ve been a regular member of for several years now.

#4 Wavinator   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1822

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Posted 22 August 2000 - 07:03 PM

quote:
Original post by Paul Cunningham

Deep as in "Character Building"? or deeper stories.



I was thinking more character building. In my game, it would be lots of starship and character upgrades, gadgets, and such. Character and starship combat would be a part of the game, and I''m plagued with the fact that I want this part to be detailed yet exciting. The more you get towards one, the less you have of the other, I think...

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Just waiting for the mothership...

#5 Spyder   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 23 August 2000 - 01:28 AM

Mixing RPG and arcade is a delicate issue that needs to be handled with care. Arcade and adventure games sucked bad, so why should the mix here be any different? Have you tried playing Icewind Dale, a great game, its real time but THANK GOD they put in a pause function.

#6 Hans   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 23 August 2000 - 08:14 AM

quote:
Original post by Spyder

Arcade and adventure games sucked bad, so why should the mix here be any different?


Of course everything can be done better and worse!

I think a mixture between action and RPG''s is a great idea, and I''d love to work on a game like that myself. Current CRPGs have lots of fighting and action but you only click on a screen where you want to move. I don''t like that very much, but I like the dialogs, the characters and the plot in many CRPGs. If someone really made a game with Quake-like frantic action and great plot+dialog+characters on top, I''d buy it! Current games are just too on/off in this.

-Hans

#7 Wavinator   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1822

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Posted 23 August 2000 - 08:37 AM

I guess this really goes to the heart of the character control vs. player control issue. If I have to jump across a bunch of platforms (God forbid) then do I succeed based on my skill, or my character''s skill, or some odd mix of both. Shooting is a perfect example. In Diablo I think it only matters what direction you shoot. Your character determines whether you hit or miss.

For shooting, I was thinking about having something like: Character''s skill = chance for criticals, and damage done. Player''s skill equals hit or no hit... ????



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#8 Wavinator   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1822

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Posted 23 August 2000 - 08:42 AM

quote:
Original post by Spyder

Mixing RPG and arcade is a delicate issue that needs to be handled with care. Arcade and adventure games sucked bad, so why should the mix here be any different? Have you tried playing Icewind Dale, a great game, its real time but THANK GOD they put in a pause function.


I really wish there was a better way to bridge the real-time and turn based crowds, here. I like the idea of pausing and issuing queued orders in a RTS, but I''m not sure it works so well in an arcade game. Maybe a system of timed automatic pauses would help?



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#9 Hans   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 23 August 2000 - 09:15 AM

If the game is in a 3d third-person-view, you can''t really aim anyway. So just put some random in the shooting direction, depending on your character''s skills. If you''re hitting with an axe or a sword, put some random on the damage. Running speed will be based on characters powers and you can''t run very long without resting. You also get hungry and thirsty if you run much. Some special skills like climbing in a tree and swimming, can be learned if a professional teaches you in a village. Then those skills can be learned further by practicing.

I know you''ll have to have decent reflexes and a rather fast mouse hand, and jumping on flying platforms is depending on your skills, not your character''s skills (but who the **** makes flying platforms anyway!?). However, I''m sure there''s a huge audience waiting for this kind of game.

As I said, the current games are still too on/off in genre types. I''d like to see more variations like this.

-Hans

#10 ahw   Members   -  Reputation: 263

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Posted 23 August 2000 - 09:19 AM

rather than doing a long post, one title : Ultima VIII

draw our own conclusions (if you don''t know about the Ultima series, that''s another story)

youpla :-P

#11 Wavinator   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1822

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Posted 23 August 2000 - 07:09 PM

quote:
Original post by Hans

If the game is in a 3d third-person-view, you can''t really aim anyway.



Ah, should have stated that I''m doing a science fiction RPG with ranged combat via guns and such. (Heh, see, folks automatically hear RPG and think fantasy...)

quote:

I know you''ll have to have decent reflexes and a rather fast mouse hand, and jumping on flying platforms is depending on your skills, not your character''s skills (but who the **** makes flying platforms anyway!?). However, I''m sure there''s a huge audience waiting for this kind of game.



I was thinking more in the line of Crusader: No Remorse action when you''re on foot, and your favorite Asteroids-alike clone when you''re in space. But no moving platforms...

Starcraft might offer a solution here: Different character types that require different levels of action. The zerg, for example, are a clicker''s wet dream, while the Protoss are on the opposite ends of the spectrum.

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#12 Wavinator   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1822

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Posted 23 August 2000 - 07:13 PM

quote:
Original post by ahw

rather than doing a long post, one title : Ultima VIII

draw our own conclusions (if you don''t know about the Ultima series, that''s another story)

youpla :-P


I was thinking about U8''s ABYSMAL ratings as I was posting this. I never made it to the the parts where people thought it was completely irritating, so unfortunately I don''t have insight here. What was the problem? Were they too mario-like? Can you elaborate...

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#13 Spyder   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 23 August 2000 - 08:53 PM

quote:
I really wish there was a better way to bridge the real-time and turn based crowds, here. I like the idea of pausing and issuing queued orders in a RTS, but I''m not sure it works so well in an arcade game.




Well I''m a realtime fan, I enjoy games like starcraft etc. The thing with a game like icewind dale is that it is to complex without a pause function. If you want a action RPG look at Diablo, then all there is to it is click-click-click. It''s not like the fights are strategy or anything. In Icewind Dale fights are like chess, you plan and outsmart your opponent this cant be done with true realtime.



So bottom line if you want a simple clickity click arcade rpg game then go ahead, if you want depth and planning avoid to much of it.




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