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$219 for win2k upgrade? gimme a break


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#21 mason   Members   -  Reputation: 128

Posted 05 November 1999 - 12:00 PM

Geoff: My point was that the only people who have a right to complain about prices are the ones who adamantly take a stand against piracy. In my mind, if you're not doing everything you can to eliminate piracy, you have no right to complain, because you're a victim of your own inaction.

Once again, if you're *really* upset about high software prices, don't just sit here and whine about it - go fight piracy. The appropriate targets for your complaints aren't the busniesses - thay're just trying to make some money, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's years of software piracy that has left them with no choice but to jack the prices up.

Mason McCuskey
Spin Studios
www.spin-studios.com


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#22 OberonZ   Members   -  Reputation: 122

Posted 05 November 1999 - 02:54 PM

I totally agree with Mason.

sorry, this will be a bit off topic...

I've been pirated software free for the last 3-4 years, even through the redicule of my peers.

Recently I gave a talk on software piracy in one of my classes (Tech Writing) and found out some interesting things:
1) College students feel that they don't have to pay for software, even 'tho a student price is available. Somewhat (not much) understandable since college students are, by definition, poor. I know. I am one I think that around that time 3D Studio Max was one of the most pirated programs -- everyone had a copy, 1% actually needed/used it for actual work. Most people had it just to have it. (Incidently, Kinetix does not have student pricing) The other oft' pirated program was StarCraft -- which everyone used! I say, if you use a program and you get enjoyment out of it, doesn't the development team deserve your money?

2) "Why should I spend $xxx on yyy since it is buggy?" -- I love that one. If you complain that it is buggy, don't use it!! I don't believe that there is any useful program of any complexity out there that has zero bugs. It is just an excuse.

3) "I'm just one person, what I do is irrelevant" and "Is it really worth $xxxx?" where other common excuses. Certainly 1,000,000 people who think their actions are irrelevant are going to cause a serious impact.

4) "It's not like stealing" It is. The only difference from shoplifting a copy of Quake from EB and burning your own copy, is that the latter can be done from the compfort of your home!

5) Companies have to invest time and resorces (read $$$) to find new anti-piracy techniques. The goal is no longer "We have to stop piracy" but it has become one of "We have to twart pirates long enough for the next version to come out." Think about it, if a company spends thousands (or millions) of dollars researching anti-pirate schemes, that is precious money that could have been used in other areas ie. hire more devs, better artists, better equiptment, etc.

Lastly any person that fancies himself a developer or some kind of software professional (yeah, not just the programmers) cannot pirate software! It's akin to cannibalism! What kind of professional ethic does that person subscribe to? It's like stealing from your family.

Anyway, that's my rant/rave/comment on the software piracy issue.
OberonZ

[This message has been edited by OberonZ (edited November 05, 1999).]


#23 Jim Adams   Members   -  Reputation: 440

Posted 05 November 1999 - 04:01 PM

I better get my words in here

3DSMax doesn't give student discounts anymore. Instead they made a student version that isn't worth the postage it's mailed with.

As for why should I buy it? As mentioned before, and as mentioned in the trial papers against Microsoft, their monopoly has put them into a position to charge either less, or a signifigent amount more for their software. If you do not buy their software, then you are at a loss since the industry is being forced to push forward using it (because of the lack of alternatives).

Anti-piracy I believe in, but let's look at how Microsoft handles it. If you piss MS off and you are a major company, they WILL revoke your license agreement, and they WILL call the FBI on you for using pirated software. I've seen this happen before, and it is perfectly legal (ever read your license agreements?). That's the lowest form of 'cracking' down on piracy I've seen.

And companies really don't put as much effort into anti-piracy schemes. It's too easy now to crack that stuff, and I think they'd rather not waste resources on something like that. If I remember right, Origin decided about 6-7 years ago to drop the majority of their copy-protection for this reason.

As for Microsofts pricing policy, I think it flat out greed. Why the hell do they have to take a product and make a basic version, enterprise version, profession edition, super turbo 2 edition, etc. Gimmie a break. Like VC++6 and VB6 - over a $1000 for a usable system. I was barely able to afford version 5 of both (I'm not paying student versions here). Pretty soon, they'll force the hobby programmers to quit!

Why do we blame everything on old Billy? Because he's the scmuck that sits there and shows off his new os to the world.


Jim Adams


#24 INVERSED   Members   -  Reputation: 172

Posted 05 November 1999 - 04:12 PM

Don't mean to disrupt what seems to be a real good round of MS bashing, but MS is a huge company. How can you blame one man for the actions of acompany that large. It's impossible for him to have that much of a say unless he's hooked him self to their server and runs the whole operation in his brain,

#25 evaclear   Members   -  Reputation: 162

Posted 05 November 1999 - 06:10 PM

Why does MS need a Professional, Enterpirise, & advanced server? Well quite frankly because they all suit diffrent needs. The advanced server offers high encryption which could be used better in a corperate enviornment say for a Large Drug Company who are worried about secrets getting out. The Enterprise would fit companies like DELL fairly well. And the Professional can be used by the 3d modelers who can't afford the ammount of money it costs for the previous program copies. Each one of these products has a diffrent pricing structure, depending on the ammount of licences, licencees etc. $219 for NT5 is much better than the previous NT 4 price of $300. If you goto a computer show you can probably pick up NT5 when it comes out as an OEM cd for about $100. Sure it's still expensive but ladies & gentilmen we are talking about something that's was designed to be used in a work enviornment, and that's how it's priced.

In time you'll see the next renovation of Windows 98. Until then you can use 98 SE, or NT4, or NT5 but please don't complain about the price. If you can't afford it you probably don't need it.


#26 LackOfKnack   Members   -  Reputation: 122

Posted 06 November 1999 - 01:06 AM

I have to disagree with OberonZ's earlier post that Win98 is more stable than 95... maybe it's just my experience but I have had twice the problems and crashes and blue screens that I had when I had 95. Also, regarding people blaming Bill for everything, who is? I hate Microsoft in general, but he happens to be a part of that, so I hate him too. Like when he was doing his Win98 presentation to shareholders I think and he got the blue screen out of nowhere right in the middle of it, and he just says "Oh- that must be why we haven't released it yet." I think, that's why Windows 9x never should have been released in the first place. And his charity of $5b- have you seen his house "Yes Mr. Fullerton just park your luxury cruiseliner over on Pier 34 there..."

Anyhow...

------------------

Lack


#27 Xai   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1363

Posted 06 November 1999 - 02:13 AM

Here's a collection of statements and opinions about the entire set of posts above.

1) MS software pricing does NOT behave like other markets in our capitalist system. They have NEVER lowered the price on ANY product I know of. Office 97 was the same price from release day, to the day until it came with the upgrade to Office 2000. This is the same for VC 4.2, 5.0, and 6.0. This fact alone should cause people to at least look into the possibility that they have a monopoply LIKE situation.

2) People can blame Bill Gates personally for the actions of such a large company, because unlike other companies like Lockheed/Martin or Hewlett Packard, he reeps a very large percentage of the rewards, AND he DID (until he switched to more of an advisory role) have control over and knowledge of EVERY project they work on. I have read most of the books from MS press about software development, and you will find that BILL personally got involved in setting the directions of the company, and deciding which projects they focused their energies (money) on.

3) Piracy issue. This is bull. If you want to hurt a company, you hit them in the pocket book (this mean give them no money). If you don't believe in stealing, don't pirate software, but you can't make the assumption that everyone shares your idea of ethical behavior. If you are fighting for revolution, inherently you must break the law, this is just the nature of the world. So for my example, if you truely believe that microsoft is evil, don't give them ANY money. If your moral system says you cannot steal, don't use their products. If you are less virtuose, follow your own desires. I personally am a programmer, and when in college I had an ethics teacher that constantly used to argue that because I would be making my living from software surely I though piracy was inherently evil (because it threatens my livelyhood). This is not the case. I believe that all laws have a purpose, and a time to be obeyed, and also a time to be changed or broken. Situational Ethics, it's how the human race stays practical, instead of just theoretical/philosophical. And if you haven't noticed, staying alive take PRACTICAL sense, not just high ideas.

4) Of all the reasons I might hate MS, as a developer here is reason number one: WINDOWS.H DOES NOT WORK ON A ISO/ANSI COMPLIANT C++ COMPILER!!! This really hurts the advancement of development tools, and the ability to develop bug free programs (by definition programs that behave the way they are expected to).

[This message has been edited by Xai (edited November 06, 1999).]


#28 jobu   Members   -  Reputation: 122

Posted 09 November 1999 - 07:57 AM

well i dont know if u know this but windows 2000 is not the next evolution in windows people. so dont buy the dam thing. wait till windows millenium comes out now thats the next evolution in windows

#29 ghowland   Members   -  Reputation: 134

Posted 09 November 1999 - 08:57 AM

We wont tolerate any name calling here people, I just deleted an offending post. This is obviously a heated topic, but if you cant be civil to each other while talking about it, your posts will be deleted and continued abuse of other members will result in having posting privledges taken away.

Just letting everyone know. We want an open forum, but not one for abbrasive juvenile behavior.

-Geoff

[This message has been edited by ghowland (edited November 09, 1999).]





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