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Going to post your game idea? Read this first

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43 replies to this topic

#21 evolutional   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1068

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 11:07 PM

I don't really agree with this 'sandbox' idea for new members, simply because you're assuming that all new members who join are clueless and know nothing about the community, which is simply not true.

I think an ideal solution will be to have a moderated GameDev wiki (as proposed by Oluseyi). This way there'd be an evolving reference point for new starters to jump to and existing ones to refer them to. Each Wiki section could be linked to the forum, perhaps even to some form of expert system to attempt to answer the user's original query or point them to the right place to talk about their ideas. In this way, it would become more like a community supported FAQ.

However, the problem we're discussing has been around since the popularisation of newsgroups. People who want to post, will post... regardless of the support mechanisms that are in place to assist them with their queries.

Having said that, this as a sticky should at least highlight a few guidelines in a visible manner upon first visiting the fora.

Sponsor:

#22 codeandroid   Members   -  Reputation: 140

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 11:19 PM

Isn't this whole thing about common sense ;)

#23 evolutional   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1068

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 11:20 PM

It's about the assumption that everyone has common sense [rolleyes]

#24 codeandroid   Members   -  Reputation: 140

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 11:43 PM

It's just that I doubt that common sense can be taught ...

#25 Thermodynamics   Members   -  Reputation: 443

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 06:32 AM

No, but you can teach better posting skills. His guide is how to post more effectively, not how to post.

#26 Chokki   Members   -  Reputation: 610

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Posted 09 August 2004 - 09:44 AM

would someone please be so kind as to put a similar sticky in the game writing forum? It has become so clogged with crap it's hard to believe...

#27 boolean   Members   -  Reputation: 1714

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Posted 09 August 2004 - 11:43 AM

I actually have one written for the game writing forum aswell, I just havnt gotten around to posting it yet. I was a bit hesitant at first because I was worried it might start to look like the 'Do what Boolean says' forums [grin]

Ill post it tonight when I get home from work.

#28 boolean   Members   -  Reputation: 1714

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Posted 10 August 2004 - 02:13 AM

All done and posted.

Feel free to head on over and offer some feedback.

#29 NidStyles   Members   -  Reputation: 138

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 03:34 PM

I aplaud your thread here. I'm a dedicated lurker of almost one year, and finally decided to sign up. This is the first thread I read after I signed up, and decided to post in it.



#30 boolean   Members   -  Reputation: 1714

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 12:43 AM

First thing you did was read this? Excellent! Your a good example for all new members/lurkers [smile]

[Android] Stupid Human Castles - If Tetris had monsters with powers and were attacking human castles. "4/5 - frandroid.com"

Full version and Demo Version available on the Android app store.


#31 BREK   Members   -  Reputation: 118

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 01:04 PM

Hello all.

I am new to the forum.
My main reason for joining this forum was to ask a question about the games design process to some people who would know the answer.

This looks like a good forum filled with people who know their craft. So I hope to visit this place a lot more in the future. Lots to see and learn. :) Like a kid in a candy store.

I appologise for posting my question in this thread, but I cannot start new threads (presumably due to me just joining), and it constantly requires me to log in, even though I have set it to remember my password etc.

It seems like a great deal of rules are being imposed on this forum, maybe thats a good thing as it means only those who really want to be in the forum will take time to read them all or just ignore the rules due to the large number. Maybe they will just try and post in any forum they can, like I am doing. :)


Anyway. onto my question, which I realise should not be in this thread, but for reasons above and that a swift reply would be most beneficial for myself (hence me posting so soon after joining), I will post it here. I will delete it or move it as soon as I may.

Question.
What is the difference between a games design document, and a concept design document.?

This may sound like a very simple question to those in the know, but so far I have not found a satisfactory answer.

Is it simply that a concept design concentrates on the game concept and is used to flesh out ideas and get a general idea of the game without going into specific details such as for example the amount of ammo or weapons a character may carry?

If anyone can answer this question or point me in the direction of an article which answers this I would appreciate it.

Thanks people.
BREK..

(hopefully you people will forgive this transgression)

#32 Ra   Members   -  Reputation: 1062

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 01:11 PM

boolean: I didn't see it in your original post and I just briefly skimmed the replies, but I think you should add a line about typing posts in something like MS Word and spell-checking them before posting.

#33 boolean   Members   -  Reputation: 1714

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 02:24 AM

Thanks for the tip Ra. I have added it near the end of the guide, and have put a little note to make sure you get the credit for it.

Cheers!

[Android] Stupid Human Castles - If Tetris had monsters with powers and were attacking human castles. "4/5 - frandroid.com"

Full version and Demo Version available on the Android app store.


#34 thelurch   Members   -  Reputation: 156

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Posted 07 September 2004 - 12:21 PM

Is bumping a good sticky a bad thing??

#35 Casey Hardman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 2207

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 02:05 PM

simply because it so hard to read.<BR itxtNodeId="353"><BR itxtNodeId="352">

if you post if it consist

I think you meant it's so hard to read and consists of :)
Just wanted to point out two little typos.
Great post, by the way!
And yes, I'm guilty of posting in the first hour of my signing up :( am I going to go on trial?
Also, what about replying to your post before anyone else does and/or 'double-replying' to your own post? I think the general rules went into detail about Bumping your topic, but I'm still wondering if there has been anything written about double replying to your post before anyone else replies.
Oh, and if you make a rather major edit and add a decently-sized block of text or just a big edit in general, can you reply to let people know? I mean, typically, people will just skip to the bottom of the page if they've already replied and are looking to see the other replies. Is it legit to put a little notification in a reply for those who've already read the thread and don't think it's necessary to look at it again?

EDIT:

2. Be careful what the title of you post is

I think you meant your post is. I found this after I posted, heh.

#36 y8gamesfree   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 01:03 PM

Thank you for this, hopefully it will prevent some bad posts.

#37 mrchrismnh   Members   -  Reputation: 82

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 01:18 PM

1. Take your time to write a good post. No one will take you seriously if you post if it consist of ‘OMG! I AM SO l33T! My idea is awesome and perfect and you will all play it!!!!1.


But it worked for Romero!

"It's like naming him Asskicker Monstertrucktits O'Ninja" -Khaiy


#38 Distress   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 15 November 2011 - 12:56 AM

I don't really agree with this 'sandbox' idea for new members, simply because you're assuming that all new members who join are clueless and know nothing about the community, which is simply not true.

I think an ideal solution will be to have a moderated GameDev wiki (as proposed by Oluseyi). This way there'd be an evolving reference point for new starters to jump to and existing ones to refer them to. Each Wiki section could be linked to the forum, perhaps even to some form of expert system to attempt to answer the user's original query or point them to the right place to talk about their ideas. In this way, it would become more like a community supported FAQ.

However, the problem we're discussing has been around since the popularisation of newsgroups. People who want to post, will post... regardless of the support mechanisms that are in place to assist them with their queries.

Having said that, this as a sticky should at least highlight a few guidelines in a visible manner upon first visiting the fora.


I have to disagree with this,

I know for a fact I'll get flamed for this, but I actually read this very thread before registering to use the website, and reading this gave me a lot of insight into why the game industry fails more often than it succeeds. This thread in my mind is actually excellent insight into the attitudes of game designers as a whole, and that is more or less what I'm responding to.

One of the issues, is that everyone thinks they make a good game designer. Of course this isn't true. Take this very thread for instance, which was fostered and birthed from an abundant supply of cynicism and elitism. I think that a lot of Average Joe's would make excellent game designers, especially if they have no prior game design experience or relevant industry experience. By this, I do in fact refer to people with the organization skills necessary. But I digress. The industry needs a little fresh blood to invigorate itself, and there's definitely some attitudes prevalent in the industry as a whole which I think definitely need to be rethought, and it's in this way, that I think game studios who are having trouble making their mark could tap into this potential and land their next big title. So a forum like this, where you have a lot of people who may not have a lot of industry experience, is a great place to look through and find a few gems here and there worthy of consideration. The industry has this attitude....that you have to get your foot in the door, before they'll take you seriously...but as of late, I think they take themselves entirely too serious, and this is the very issue I'm attempting to address with this post. Some of the more recent mediocre titles coming from prominent studios shouldn't surprise us at all, though I'm sure the developers of these titles were somewhat surprised by the negative feedback from reviewers and consumers alike and of course, if they weren't surprised then perhaps that's a bigger issue all on it's own.

Programmers are the biggest offenders in my mind. I know more than a few coders. They also think they could make great games. But...mostly their ideas are all just derivative (FPS and WoW clones are abundant here). Plenty of exceptions when it comes to this, I'm sure, but sometimes if you want to think outside the box, you need and outsider to do it. Of course, it's about what sells, right? But there are more than a few studios out there who I think would like to be a trend setter rather than a derivative producer. I think the legions of wannabe game designers might just be the new blood that the industry needs to advance beyond this recent infection of clone-itis (and E.A is a big offender here), and with this issue it's no surprise the console market is shrinking.

The industry is tantalizingly stagnant right now, and I'm seeing more franchise clones than ever before. More of the same. More repetitive games which give me a sense of deja-vu, more of those "haven't I been here before?" game experiences. The mainstream reviewing sites do their thing and mainly give these big titles rave reviews, but one thing I've noticed about these reviews (like on Gamespot) is they aren't sufficiently critical, and user reviews on these sites are surprising often times not only because of their abundant spelling and punctuation errors, but also the numerous good observations that give a lot of insight into the industry as a whole. Right now, the industry is predominantly geared towards the casual gamer. But of course, the game market isn't composed of just casual gamers. There's a lot of sophisticated consumers out there as well that are seemingly always expecting more, and they have been left feeling decidedly disenfranchised as of late (I think I count myself in that crowd, despite being somewhere in between the two).

Take these titles:

1.) Duke Nukem Forever
2.) A Game of Thrones
3.) The Haunted
4.) The Call of Juarez
5.) Men of War: Vietnam
6.) Achron
7.) Dungeon Siege III

That's just the tip of the iceberg, all of these titles received mediocre if not outright bad reviews and there's hundreds more where those came from. It just goes to show, that some times the pro's don't know (how to do it right, that is), as we see titles like Aion and Duke Nukem Forever fall flat on their face despite having everything a good game should in terms of funding and talent (coders, 3D creators, ect.). IMO, big title MMO's are the most susceptible titles to failure. Take a look at Warhammer and Age of Conan. AoC is actually a pretty good game, but both have gone free to play more recently than not. And Everquest II is joining them in the free to play hell soon enough (Dec 2011). And games like Heroes of Might and Magic 6 (which received relatively mild reviews (7 out of 10's mainly) seem in my mind to be games which would have been vastly helped by a little out of the box thinking.

I recently had an interesting experience after buying and playing Skyrim. I noticed more than a few people were moaning and groaning about the removal of the mark and recall spells, and levitation and fly spells. There were also more than a few gripes about other changes to the franchise. But it struck a chord with me...Skyrim is a great game, and deserves the excellent reviews it's gotten so far. But maybe it could have been a 10 on more review sites, if the dev's had maintained a little more insight into what their audience really wants (and that maybe catering to the casual gamer isn't always the best choice for developers). But you know, this is the type of issue than can (and often does) cripple future titles.

It begs the question, "Should we ignore the legion of wannabe game designers?". I suspect pretty much all of the industry insiders will do exactly that. Even amazing design studios like Obsidian aren't immune to failure, producing titles like Alpha Protocol. Take one look at all the WoW clones out there, and all the derivative coming from the industry as of late, and tell me, where is the industry going as a whole and how many millions of dollars are wasted each year on trashy titles which could have been much better? Suddenly the premise of this thread is cast in a whole new light.

#39 Bigdeadbug   Members   -  Reputation: 173

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:41 AM

@Distress.

1. What is your definition of a "casual" gamer and how exactly do companies cater to them?

2. I fail to see how anything you have said has any real relevance to the post you quoted. Evolutional seems to have been advocating a Wiki system that allowed people to look up frequently asked quests as well as general information about game design without having to search through the huge number of old posts this forum has. The expert system mentioned isn't an attempt to stifle a prospective designers creativity merely a way to provide them with a well-grounded and informative response quickly.

3. There tends to be a trend for people in any discipline to discount amateur's views on what seems like a whim. In some cases this is just them being egotistic but in a lot of cases there are valid reasons for doing so. The reason is often because they have has experience with a similar idea before and it failed to pan out. The reason it comes across as "ignoring" that person is because they fail to explain exactly why the idea won't work from their experience. This can both be the fault of the answerer but can also been the fault of the questioner for posting the same idea as 50 other people have. I would go onto say that the posters on this forum are very good at explaining exactly why an idea will or will not work.

4. This isn't a recent phenomenon and I think you will find that you are looking at the wrong section of the industry for "innovative" design, much like the movie industry, you will find the majority of new ideas come from the independent sector. The reasons for this are many but the main culprit isn't that designers are being elitist, but that there are a huge number of people leaving the industry within a couple of years of starting out and that will have more to do with current working practices than anything else.

5. This post and its purpose isn't some method of stifling creativity like you seem to suggest. It is merely a way of providing new posters with tips that will result in the kind of reply they are looking for and, hopefully, give them a good introduction to the community. The only section that could be construed in this way is the MMORPG one, that isn't saying don't post the idea but be realistic when you post and people will take you more seriously.

#40 Distress   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 06:44 PM

@Distress.

1. What is your definition of a "casual" gamer and how exactly do companies cater to them?

2. I fail to see how anything you have said has any real relevance to the post you quoted. Evolutional seems to have been advocating a Wiki system that allowed people to look up frequently asked quests as well as general information about game design without having to search through the huge number of old posts this forum has. The expert system mentioned isn't an attempt to stifle a prospective designers creativity merely a way to provide them with a well-grounded and informative response quickly.

3. There tends to be a trend for people in any discipline to discount amateur's views on what seems like a whim. In some cases this is just them being egotistic but in a lot of cases there are valid reasons for doing so. The reason is often because they have has experience with a similar idea before and it failed to pan out. The reason it comes across as "ignoring" that person is because they fail to explain exactly why the idea won't work from their experience. This can both be the fault of the answerer but can also been the fault of the questioner for posting the same idea as 50 other people have. I would go onto say that the posters on this forum are very good at explaining exactly why an idea will or will not work.

4. This isn't a recent phenomenon and I think you will find that you are looking at the wrong section of the industry for "innovative" design, much like the movie industry, you will find the majority of new ideas come from the independent sector. The reasons for this are many but the main culprit isn't that designers are being elitist, but that there are a huge number of people leaving the industry within a couple of years of starting out and that will have more to do with current working practices than anything else.

5. This post and its purpose isn't some method of stifling creativity like you seem to suggest. It is merely a way of providing new posters with tips that will result in the kind of reply they are looking for and, hopefully, give them a good introduction to the community. The only section that could be construed in this way is the MMORPG one, that isn't saying don't post the idea but be realistic when you post and people will take you more seriously.


It wasn't so much a reply specifically to him or his post, thought I did quote his post. More or less, I was addressing points made throughout the entire thread. And it is true, that the independent sector is the most original and fresh and terms of new creative ideas, however even the mainstream industry makes frequent attempts to create original titles that aren't derivative clones, Alpha Protocol is an example of this, though a failed one.

But a telling sign is that studios never look outside the industry for design talent. Their job postings are guaranteed to always look like (5 years prior experience required, blah blah blah, such and such degree from a four year institution required, ect ect). And...as my post noted, there's tons of horrible titles coming out of the mainstream sector, which makes the rest of us face palm and scream, "WHY!?"

As a game player, I'd like to see the industry try to engage it's audience more for new ideas, rather than just create their own titles using their own musty old ideas. Will Wright in my mind, is a game designer who was almost one of a kind. Very innovative. But bogged down with the E.A bog.





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