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Ten games every designer should play


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#61 ahw   Members   -  Reputation: 263

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 05:04 AM

I find it interesting that in three pages of games, I noticed only three people mentioning non computer games (SunAndShadow, acapulco and BioMors)...

I mean come on guys, how can you talk about RTS and not look at the evolution of games like the Warhammer series (Fantasy Battle, 40k, Epic, and others)
For instance, my favourite, Epic 40k, started its life as a smaller scale version of 40k, where every single unit in the game had stats, options, powers, etc. When you have several hundred units on the table on each side, I let you imagine the time it took to fight a battle. Although the die hard veterans keep the old version alive and kicking online, over the years, the designers have done a fantastic job of streamlining the rules and making it much faster, the latest version having squad based orders and much less micromanagement.

What about roleplaying games ?
How on Earth do you dare talk about designing a cRPG if you have only ever heard of Dungeon and Dragons ?
Do you guys even realise Fallout, the oh so often lauded cRPG, is based on the GURPS roleplaying game ? A system a find particularly awful, IMO, despite some excellent supplement (like the Transhuman Space series, or the Discworld RPG).
And for the love of all things sacred, don't call Diablo a RPG. It's a roguelike, a hack and slash, a kill em all, but not a roleplaying game (and I _do_ adore Crawl and ADOM, personally)

Magic the Gathering ?
Hello ? This game started a freaking industry. They bought Dungeon and Dragons (well, TSR, technically speaking)! Need I say more ?

But there are also non collectable ones, little card games like, oh I don't know, Citadels ? Anyone played Munchkin and its sequels ? Uno ? Once upon a time ?

There are so many board games out there that are just begging to be converted to the computer.
I mean, if you have ever heard of Car Wars, don't you think this should have been made into a computer game years ago ? (yes, all those Interstate 76, Carmaggeddon, and other drive and kill games are all based on this game, IMHO)

Man, has any of you played the Lord of the Rings board game ? One the many games designer Rainer Knizia has made. Gee, the German have bloody conventions on board games! So much untapped potential...

and I am forgetting tons, here, pick up any good gaming shop catalogue and you'll realise just how much there is to play. Good old Wargames, classic board games (Chess, Go and all the others), puzzles and jigsaws (not the "make a picture" ones, the 3D ones)

[headshake] My, my, so much games, so little time!
-----------------------------Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

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#62 ishpeck   Members   -  Reputation: 154

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 05:10 AM

Quote:
Original post by ahw
I find it interesting that in three pages of games, I noticed only three people mentioning non computer games ...


My experience has been that good game design comes in one of two forms:
1 - An improvment upon an existing idea
2 - The development of a new one

From a design perspective, the former is easier. From a development perspective, it may require more work because you have to exert 200% effort to get that extra 10% niftiness that brings a game from decent to amazing.

The development of new ideas requires, at the very least, a shift away from computerized games. In playing other peoples games, you tend to taint your own imagination with the subconscious relationship to games that you're already playing. If you absolutely can't live without gaming, try playing a table-top game: This will help alleviate the influence of other people's computerized games while still keeping your gameer's appetite satiated. The influence of table-top games can even improve your designing mindset.

#63 jRaskell   Members   -  Reputation: 220

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 07:54 AM

My own 2 cents...

I gotta agree with X-Com, UFO Defense. Loved that game. Great turn based tactical combat, unique research and development system focused around captured alien technology, funding system from nations around the world.

Morrowind for it's good and bad. Open ended gameplay, explorable environments, and the freedom to do pretty much anything you wished, even when it meant ending your chances of completing a quest, even a main storyline quest. Great variety of quests, though it could have used far better quest management. Combat and magic systems were a bit lacking in my opinion though. The concept for Combat is sound, the implementation still needs work. Oblivion sounds like it'll be greatly improving that. Magic system was meh all together from my perspective, but that's supposedly getting a big improvement with Oblivion.

Duke Nukem 3D. Some of the funnest FPS action I've ever played, both single and multiplayer (though the multiplayer was all local LAN play). Just a plain fun game. Pipe bombs you detonated yourself. Laser mines, jet pack, shrink ray... Silly enemies, strip bars, one liners... Just fun stuff with a surprising amount of potential strategy mixed in.

As well as every game that's been listed in this thread 3 or more times Just lots of popular games that all have at least something to offer as far as good design, but many also have their flaws as well. I don't think there are really any truly perfect games out there, but you can learn from the mistakes just as well.

#64 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 08:08 AM

Most of the games you said would be in my list too. I would add Omicron: The Nomad Soul. An game that combines most genres (fighting, 3D Shooter, Puzzle, Adventure, RPG, etc)

#65 King of Men   Members   -  Reputation: 391

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 08:55 AM

Ye gods, people, how can you have forgotten Paradox's series of games based on the Europa Universalis engine? From the original right up to Victoria, these set the standard for 4x games. Civ? It pales in comparison. A fine idea when it (and computer games in general) were new, but really, technology has moved on.

I agree with the nomination of Epic 40k, truly an excellent tabletop wargame; the rules are so elegant that I believe they could be ported to a computer with no loss of playability, and still be quite realistic. This is what the RTS / wargame genre should be doing.

For boardgames, how about Junta and Diplomacy? While it would be difficult to give these much impact as single-player games, since so much of the fun is in the interaction between humans, for excellence of background (Junta) and simplicity of rules (Dip) these have no equal.

Settlers of Catan! Can it really be true that no-one has made a computer port of this yet? Someone is missing a major opportunity here. (Hmm... Makes note.)

On a slight tangent, how about books every designer should have read? I would nominate :

- LOTR. Ok, its reputation is way overblown. Still, this is where all the fantasy cliches start; you should read it just to see where the genre comes from, and perhaps be able to avoid some of the mistakes.

- Honor Harrington series. Spaceship combat with broadsides, yeah! Space opera at its best.

- Turtledove's Great War and Worldwar series. The man can't do dialogue for shit, and has apparently given up on producing alternate history, as opposed to reruns of the thirties with different players and identical plays. (And for God's sake stay away from the Darkness and Civil War stuff!) But he can do impact of wars on economic and social fabrics, which any designer of strategy games should think about.

- Stirling, Island in the Sea of Time series. Again with the logistics, but this time the writing is much better. Also worth while for its look at ancient diplomacy and the impact of sea power. Not to mention that it's worth reading just for the sentence "The cannon were keeping up well with the chariots; Pharaoh would be pleased." Classic!

- Speaking of sea power, Mahan! The Influence of Sea Power upon History. Agree or disagree with his thesis, the book will certainly give you ideas for your next strategy game. For some reason, most games have ignored naval power or simulated it badly. Mahan will tell you why this is a horrible idea.

EDIT : Forgot the reason I actually started this post, which was to mention Monkey Island. The culmination of the adventure-puzzle genre. Why does no-one make games like this anymore?

#66 sunandshadow   Moderators   -  Reputation: 4986

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 09:44 AM

Quote:
Original post by Kylotan
I find it quite interesting that there are several games here that I really think have serious design flaws (Baldur's Gate, FF7, Tekken 3, Daggerfall). There's something to be learned from most games, even if it's just how not to do something.


I think it's hard to find any game (or novel for that matter) that doesn't have a major design flaw somewhere; especially an innovative game, because when you're doing something experimental it's hard to anticipate what it's going to feel like to the player, and once you get to the beta-testing phase some flaws are too deeply rooted in the design to fix, especially if it's a commercial project where you're trying to make a release date.


So, who's going to go through this thread and helpfully collect all the suggestions into a single list, categorized by genre? ;)

#67 Kylotan   Moderators   -  Reputation: 3338

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 03:40 PM

BoZo - I agree, Ultima 7 is the best computer game ever made. There's plenty to be learned there, not least how not to design an interface - it put off many people who would otherwise have loved the game.

ahw - I think the Warhammer games have some of the worst rules invented. They exist merely to sell the miniatures and have been dumbed down in each successive edition to appeal to younger and younger children. The result these days is that instead of being a game of strategy it's a game of rolling a bucket of dice. (I must type this quietly as my housemate works for Games Workshop...!) And Wizards Of The Coast only really managed to buy TSR (the D+D makers) because TSR were pretty much bankrupt. Magic: The Gathering does have some good mechanics, or at least did do, before that too ended up having to cannibalise and parody itself to continue making it worth buying new cards. However I do think the intention here was to talk about computer games, although I do see your point.

King of Men - I find Civ much more playable than Europa Universalis. The balance and pacing in the latter game is incredibly poor. I have heard that it's less of a problem in the sequel however.

sunandshadow - I see your point, but the games I mentioned were all sequels except for Baldur's Gate, which also didn't feature anything innovative (unless I missed it). I think it's possible to be noticeably innovative and yet still deliver a quality experience, so I don't think that significantly flawed games deserve to make it to the top 10.

#68 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 19072

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 06:51 PM

Quote:
Original post by sunandshadow
So, who's going to go through this thread and helpfully collect all the suggestions into a single list, categorized by genre? ;)


This could take a while [lol] I assume you were at least half joking, but I think it could be useful.

#69 frostburn   Members   -  Reputation: 380

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 08:18 PM

Quote:
Original post by mhamlin
Quote:
Original post by TechnoGoth
6) Quest for glory 1-4 – PC - These enjoyable games are an excellent blend of adventure, rpg, and humor. With 3 different character types each possessing there own path through the game and methods for overcoming obstacles, make a lot more then you standard adventure game or rpg. Add to this the fact that you can bring your character along from one game into the next and you have one of the most enjoyable game series ever made.


Seconded. I'm a huge QFG fan--definately some of the finest games Sierra ever made (perhaps the finest?). In fact, I recently replayed 1-3, and am in the process of replaying QFG4.

Man, those were damn well made games.


Thirded.. Escpecially the first two in EGA version. Point and click might be easier, but I personally liked to type what I wanted the character to do and it didn't have the pixel-hunting of more modern adventure games. The VGA remake of QFG1 wasn't as enjoyable. The mix between Adventure, RPG and action is great, and I've yet to see a RPG combat system I've liked better than the one in these games. The only disadvangage about it is that when you fight multiple enemies, only 1 step forward and fight at a time, so it's not very realistic. Also, it's not team based, but in my opinion that's not really a bad thing. In KOTOR2 I have to spend at least as much time stopping my team-mates from running headfirst into trouble, so I pretty much find it easier to park them away from the combat zone and go solo.

BTW, I managed to get 525 (or so) points out of 500 in QFG1 (EGA). Beat that! [smile]

On a list of games all game designers should play there should be at least one game of each kind.. I don't see anyone mentioning plane/space-fighter simulation games. My preference is the Wing Commander series (Esp 2, 3 and 4), and to a lesser degree Starlancer, but that's mainly because I enjoy games with good stories better than others.

I'll also give a vote to the Ultima series (esp. 7). They're absolutely huge, has good stories, and offer a lot of freedom (making things, robbing the bank and having sex comes to mind [smile]). When you consider that U7 was about 5MB and came out in the early 90's, 50+ hours of gameplay with ok graphics (great for it's time) is pretty impressive.

#70 rick_appleton   Members   -  Reputation: 857

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 08:57 PM

Went through the thread up until here and summed it all up. Alphabetically for now:

Civilisation 1
Age of Empires 2
Alpha Centauri
Ape Escape
Archon
Asteroids
Baldur's Gate
Barbarian
Beatmania IIDX
Bejeweled
Beyond Good & Evil
Black & White
Blackthorne
Boulder Dash
Breath of Fire 2
Carmageddon
Castelvania (all)
Chrono Cross
Chrono Trigger
Civilisation 3
Command & Conquer
Contra 3
Counter Strike
Creatures 2/3
Dance Dance Revolution
Dangerous Dave
Darklands
Deus Ex
Diablo 2
Do DonPachi
Doom
Dragon Warrior 4
Duck Hunt
Duke Nukem 3D
Dungeon Keeper
Earthbound
Elder Scrolls (all)
EVO: The Search for Eden
Eye of the Beholder
Fable
Fallout 2
Fallout 2
Fallout Tactics
Final Fantasy (all)
Gex Enter the Gecho
Goldeneye
Gothic
Gran Turismo
Grim Fandango
GTA 3: Vice City
Half-Life
Halo 1 / 2
Harvest Moon (any)
Heroes of Might and Magic 4
Hotshots Golf
Ice Hockey
Ikaruga
Jedi Knight
Jumper Redux
Katamari Damacy
Knights of valour
Knight of the Old Republic
Lands of Lore 1
Legends of Kyrandia
Lemmings
Little Big Adventure 1 / 2
Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring
Lurking Horror
Maniac Mansion
Mario 64
Mario Kart
Mario Kart 64
Masters of Orion 2
MechCommander
Mechwarrior 1
Medal of Honor
Medievel: Total War
Mega man
Metal Gear Solid
Metal Slug
Metroid Prime
Monkey Island
Monster Rancher
M.U.L.E.
Mutant League Football
Myst
Myth 2
NBA Jam
Neopet
Nethack
Neverwinter Nights
Nights: Into Dreams
Oddworld
Omicron: The Nomad Soul
Oni
Orbiter
Out of this World
Pac-Man
Persona 2
Pokemon
Prince of Persia
Prince of Persia (SNES)
Project Eden
Puyo Puyo
Quake 3
Quest for Glory (1-4)
Racing Destruction Set
Ragnarok
Rainbow Six (all)
Rayman
Rez
Road Rash
Sanitarium
Shining Force 2
Sim City
Smash Bros. 2
Sonic 2/3
Spellcross
Spiderman 2
Spyro
Star Control 2
Star Wars: Republic Commando
Starcraft
Starflight
Street Fighter
Street Fighter 2
Super Bomberman
Super Donkey Kong Country
Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts
Super Mario 3
Super Metroid
System Shock
Tekken 3
Tekken 4
Tekken Tag
Tetris
The Sims ½
Thief (all)
TIE Fighter
Tony Hawk
Total Annihilation
Typing of the dead
UFO Enemy Unknown
Ultima (all)
Unreal Tournament 2004
Vagrant Story
Warcraft 2
Warcraft 3
Warcraft Adventures
Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War
Warning Forever
Wing Commander
Winning Eleven (all)
Wiz'n'Liz
Wolfenstein
World of Warcraft
Worms
Xenogears
Xenosaga
Yoshi's Island
Zangband
Zelda Link to the Past
Zelda Ocarina of Time

#71 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 19072

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 09:02 PM

Quote:
Original post by rick_appleton
[list of games]


Thanks, you've just made my job with the other thread (link) a whole lot easier to manage. [smile]

#72 rick_appleton   Members   -  Reputation: 857

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 09:06 PM

That was the basic idea. Besides which, I'm bored :D

I'm not so sure about putting these in categories, since you'll always have games that span categories. Do you add them to both then?

#73 jbadams   Senior Staff   -  Reputation: 19072

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 10:13 PM

For now, I'm trying to fit them into whatever they best match, and I'll put notes of crossovers. If it becomes a problem as the list grows, some other system of organisation will probably be needed, but thus far it hasn't presented a major issue. I'm planning to sub-organise the categories alphabetically once I've got a bit more done as well.

What additional information would you provide for each, in addition to:
-title
-some keywords
-link to a website (official or otherwise)
-brief summary


#74 furiousuk   Members   -  Reputation: 159

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 12:14 AM

My 2 pennies...
In no order...

1) Super Ghosts & Ghouls -> Great shout whoever came up with that, innovative mid-air jump and very addictive. Incredibly simple.

2) Ultima Underworld -> Obviously, technically, one of 1st 3D 1st-person games, great story as always.

3) Bloodwych -> Dungeon Master rightly gets all the acclaim for this genre but Bloodwych had very clever dungeon design that used limited creatures to great effect and required no mapping as most areas were fairly segmented (similar to a hub system in a way). No need to map is a definite plus for these games.

4) Civ -> No question.

5) Elite -> For same reasons as civ really.

6) GTA3 -> Elite in a city, a great modern representation of the same values.

7) Rez -> I'm soooo glad someone mentioned this one. Spectacular and innovative.

8) NWN -> Hmm, interesting inclusion as I guess games like this are really very similar but the scope of this one is incredible. Still searching for the *perfect* adventure but the integration of the Aurora toolset with its vast set of features is another plus.

#75 Codarki   Members   -  Reputation: 462

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 01:07 AM

Civilization
UFO - Enemy Unknown
System Shock
Doom/Duke Nukem 3D
Subspace
Dune2/WC2/C&C
Star Control 2
Master of orion
Diablo

All blizzard's and westwood's games are worth checking out. Also like looking glass's games aswell.


#76 ahw   Members   -  Reputation: 263

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 01:44 AM

Actually, Kylotan, this is what the poster wrote :

Quote:
Technogoth
Partly because of some the comments on a thread about innovation in games, and partly because I think it would be helpful to people. I thought I would start this topic.

What in your opinion are ten games every game designer should play? and why?


And if you ask me, I don't think one should look _just_ at computer games when there is so much untapped potential around. I am sorry but it's just plain stupid.

Quote:
Original post by Kylotan
ahw - I think the Warhammer games have some of the worst rules invented. They exist merely to sell the miniatures and have been dumbed down in each successive edition to appeal to younger and younger children. The result these days is that instead of being a game of strategy it's a game of rolling a bucket of dice. (I must type this quietly as my housemate works for Games Workshop...!)

Ahah, yes, I entirely agree with you, which is why you'll notice I mention the Epic 40k game, and the roleplaying game. I can't stand the Battle and 40k.
And don't get me started about the miniatures... since initially I am a painter, I only got interested in the games as an afterthought, really. Anyway, nowadays there are some very serious competitors (for the quality of miniatures), like Confrontation, or Warzone (in Limbo at the moment, I believe) or Void, or Warmachine, gee ...

Quote:
And Wizards Of The Coast only really managed to buy TSR (the D+D makers) because TSR were pretty much bankrupt. Magic: The Gathering does have some good mechanics, or at least did do, before that too ended up having to cannibalise and parody itself to continue making it worth buying new cards.

Well, I started playing Magic more than 10 years ago, and I haven't bought a booster in, pff, quite some time now. Haven't even looked at the new edition with its brand new layout.
No, to tell you the truth I was much more interested in looking at all the new other concepts. Stuff like Vampire the Masquerade (well, based on the roleplaying game anyway), Legend of the Five Rings (the only card game I know of that was so cool they made a roleplaying game out of it!), Dark Age: Feudal Lords, Guardians (and its hilarious extensions), Kabal (based on Nephilim), Doomtrooper (based on the Warzone roleplaying game/wargame), even the recent card game version of Warhammer has its moments.

As for the TSR story, I was just making a point, eh :) Imagine if Electronic Arts had bought them, LOL... at least it stayed in the family, so to speak.

Anyway, read one of the recent game designer books (I loved Chris Crawford's, and Ernest Adams is always a great read), and I would doubt it if they disagreed with me.

Now, what about... I dunno,
The Top Ten Games That Have ALREADY Been Used To Death
Or something like that.

Please guys, open your eyes and realise there are other things that computer games around!
-----------------------------Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

#77 Metorical   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 579

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 02:00 AM

TechnoGoth:

"Masters of Orion" is beat hands down by "Stars!"

Stars! is the all time classic 4X game with the biggest following and die hard fans. You can still get e-mail games today quite easily. It features everything in MOO2 and arguably more. For 4X gameplay it is the best.



#78 logain   Members   -  Reputation: 229

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 02:26 AM

Kazgoroth, what I suggest looking for.

We'll the first thing that stands out to me is that planes dont move as fast as you ground troops which, if I remember right starcraft's does.

Also, they have some nice diversity of units and balance. You have footsoldiers (kbots), tanks, boats, and planes.

What is nice is that in Core Contingency, one side gets an uber unit (the krogoth); however, the other side has a unit that can stun and capture him. Then you can repair him. So if one side your are guaranteed to get that uber unit at a cost, bu the other side can get him cheaper but at much greater risk.

Your commander also has a weapon that can blow anything up, but when they CAN be killed and when the Arm's commander destroy's a Krogoth, he takes damage getting there and when the Krogoth explodes. All in all though this can help you out when people rush you early in the game.

So essentially no one unit can really win you the game. This requires more work, effort, and thinking. Theres more to look for in the game but that should be a good start.

Two sore points with total annihilation though. Poor path finding. Actually the AI in better could be better. But it was made back in '96. No upgrading the units. Albeit they already had a lot of units.

The game is best when you play against another person, as games tend to be.

Also, Cavedog, who made the game went belly up a while back. I did see a copy for sale in NY awhile back and I was shocked. $10.

#79 Brien Shrimp   Members   -  Reputation: 176

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 03:26 AM

Quote:
Original post by logain
ummm....no one likes Total Annihilation and everyone likes Starcraft? Pfft... I like both of 'em.


I was pretty surprised to see unrestrained love for Startcraft without mention of Total Annihilation, the other "best RTS ever" that came out at just about the same time. One thing I really liked about TA: dead units can be reclaimed for resources by any construction unit. So if your attack fails to seriously damage your enemy, he'll just reclaim your dead robots and rebuild. Not only have you lost some units, but you've just fed his forces.

Also, the pathfinding was pretty bad, but only when you had more than 250 or so units. Most games don't even let you get that many.

Also, when I see a thread titled "Ten games every designer should play" I hope for a list of obscure but brilliant games, games that might not even be that great, but that contain an element of design not usually explored. Not a list of games EVERYONE has played.

Brien Smith-MartinezGarbage In, Games Out

#80 MSW   Members   -  Reputation: 151

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 05:57 AM

Cool, now we got board games and P&P RPGs showing up...how about sports, those too are games.

Baseball, basketball, soccer (what the rest of the world calls football), vollyball...don't just play the video game versions, get out there and play them for real.

And don't forget "kids" games too...cops-n-robbers, hide and seek, tic-tac-toe, and the one game that should be on everyones list rock/paper/sissors.

Anyway here was my list from a couple pages back:

Monster Rancher - or any one of the princess maker, virtual pet type games where players care for and train a person/creature inorder to win

M.U.L.E. - the stratigy classic

Gran Turismo - another classic

Mutant League Football - for remembering that in the video game realm you can do more then simulate a real world sport.

Robotron - a classic, perfect model of intensity

Super Bomberman - a multiplayer classic

Ikaruga - because you simply must have a classy shoot-em-up...everybit pure gameplay as Tetris, minus the power-up cliches the genre has de-evolved into...others one should player are Radient Silvergun and Mars Matrix

Dig Dug - a often overlooked classic

Sim City - should be self evident

The Lurking Horror - text adventures have the best graphics ever...and thier ability to dive players into such a wide variety of subjects and settings puts the rest of the industry to shame.




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