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#1 Landfish   Members   -  Reputation: 288

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Posted 09 November 2000 - 02:35 PM

A pair of old writing proverbs: Write what you know. Basically it boils down to this. You should always endeavor to write your story about something on which you have a unique and informed outlook. A book about firefighters that is written by a firefighter will have an inherent validity that would not be present in a similar book written by a fast-food cashier. Write who you know. Real life people are very deep. They have years of background that no writer could possibly hope to fabricate realistically. Often times, a character starts off as just a 2D person whose general personality leads them to execute plot reversalss in a certain way. To inject real character in a role, you''re much better off basing any given character on one or more real-life individuals that you know than making him/her up from scratch. It adds that third dimension that gives characters a little punch. HOW DOES THIS APPLY TO DIVERGENT PLOTS? (You will note that this question is both rhetorical, and practical, I''d like it if you can all give me your thoughts. However, I will reply below with my OWN ideas to discourage my detractors from piping up. ) I think it comes up when you get into character decisions. You could take a certain character, and then apply to it SEVERAL DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES. Run through all of the plot forks with those personalities in mind, and see which ones do what. You could theoretically use that kind of thinking to create more realistic situations for roleplay under conditions that still offer signifigant choices... Whatever THAT means...

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#2 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

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Posted 09 November 2000 - 03:48 PM

Interesting point, LF. When I think of divergence & role-playing I usually think in terms of different players role-playing according to their skills or abilities (a warrior-type guy, a magic-type guy...etc), but it would be much deeper to think in terms of personalities although skills & attributes may influence the personality.

LF, are you proposing to let the player develop their own personalitiesm, or use pre-made personalities, or am I totally off?


"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


#3 dwarfsoft   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1214

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Posted 09 November 2000 - 03:56 PM

Also, running through the personalities BEFORE a player goes through would allow you to figure out if they are roleplaying correctly...

I think that your post also pertains to the possibilities for machines to write stories. They lack the depth and personality that you speak of. Therefore I think that such a story would be shallow...

In any event, you have made me think
Glad you''re still hanging around LF

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          


#4 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

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Posted 09 November 2000 - 04:11 PM

quote:
Original post by dwarfsoft

Also, running through the personalities BEFORE a player goes through would allow you to figure out if they are roleplaying correctly...



True. Personally, I would like it if the game reacted according to the way the player plays. This leaves the player w/ the responsibility to role-play in a consistant manner instead of doing a good deed one day then murdering a whole town the next.

I guess if we did it this way, we could either somehow hinder the player from inconsistant role-play or have some sort of reward for consistant role-play. I would perfer the latter...

Still gotta think about this...very interesting...

In any event, you have made me think
Glad you''re still hanging around LF
Me too :-)






"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


#5 dwarfsoft   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1214

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Posted 09 November 2000 - 04:22 PM

I would just like to see the town slaughter the player if they started slaughtering the town... Now that would be rather amusing... But we are getting OT

About the player and their experiences, they are very much likely to be affected by past experiences. I think I have now realised why people like killing so much. It all comes back to bad experiences with bullies I think (well, some part of it). In games, we like to feel dominant and to assert that dominance. I know that I would have liked to hack through a lot of people in my schoolyard with a f***ing huge sword while shooting fire out of my eyes and lightning out of my anus.

If only there can be a game that taps in on bad experiences and uses them towards a constructive means. Basically, I think such a game would coerce a player into being decisive to gain majority and power over others. They reach supremacy by methods other than killing. This would still hold the addictive value as far as I can see.
Goddamnit! Stop copying my idea! ;P I am the subtle talker around here... ;P

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          


#6 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

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Posted 09 November 2000 - 04:32 PM

Sorry this is OT, but that is interesting, dwarf. Wouldn't it be cool if games delt w/ those emotions of feeling helpless because of oppression or whatever in life and games allowed a means to show a constructive way around those feelings besides violence?

Games have that extra dimension of interactivity that other media does not have, and it could be used so that people could be taught to react in positive ways. Like any aggressive or any immoral act could be condemned while dealing w/ things positively would be condoned. This could all be done on an abstract level so people won't realize they're being taught something

Very clever dwarf

Hey you stole the Tiberia idea :-)


"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


Edited by - Nazrix on November 9, 2000 11:33:10 PM

#7 dwarfsoft   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1214

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Posted 09 November 2000 - 04:47 PM

Thanx Naz, been coming to realise some very important issues recently in regards to reasoning in gameplay and game development taken back to when some really bad experiences set me on the wrong path (or right, I never can tell ). Anyway. *Tries to heft this thing back On topic*.

I believe that they tried a tactic of brainwashing with Coca-Cola in movies. They had the image of COKE appear in a single frame between the changes of scene, this greatly improved the sale of a certain fizzy drink during the intermission. Since that experiment, that kind of advertising has been banned (obviously). Would it then be immoral to be teaching in subconcious ways?

I don''t think it would, to tell the truth, but some might. Anyway - going with the writers being the interpersonal and uncharacterised, what do they want to tell the gamer. Games aren''t books, and as such there could be a moral objective but no clear path (interactive, not divergent). Seeing as we are limiting ourselves to divergent media, I don''t think that the unclear path is a problem, becuase there is always a defined path. How does the writer express their opinion to the player subconciously and how does that message not get misconstrued?

Does the moral of the game end up fiting in with the character that is being played and the player that is being characterised. These are all rhetorical questions also and I think that this is something that can''t really be identified. How do you send unconcious messages to unwilling learners, even if they are willing players. If this could be done at the moment, then the subconcious message of ''this game is the best'' would have already been used to advance really crap games.

Sorry, I am ranting, and I realise that this is way off topic. Amazing how quickly we can drag a good topic completely away from its beginnings eh naz?
Thats it... You can only read this if you highlight it or press reply... As for Tiberia... YOU COPIED OF POUYA ;P. I didn''t copy off you, I copied off pouya ;P

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          


#8 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

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Posted 09 November 2000 - 04:55 PM

quote:
Original post by dwarfsoft
Sorry, I am ranting, and I realise that this is way off topic. Amazing how quickly we can drag a good topic completely away from its beginnings eh naz?



Yeah, we''re great at it...we''ve had tons of practice though.

Yeah I figured out the highlighting thing. I copied your tag colors too so there



"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


#9 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

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Posted 09 November 2000 - 05:00 PM

Anyway, dwarf, maybe we should not try to brainwash people but at least it would be interesting to use the interactivity of games to send a message (even if it is not overtly obvious). Movies do it a lot, and the cool part is that w/ games it could be more powerful if it happens to the player through a more interactive aspect.

Perhaps we should keep it OT til Landfish posts in the Character Growth and Stories thread. I really wanted to hear his expansion upon that idea...kind of like boycotting...


"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


#10 dwarfsoft   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1214

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Posted 09 November 2000 - 05:03 PM

quote:
Original post by Nazrix
Yeah I figured out the highlighting thing. I copied your tag colors too so there ;-)

Damn you! Always theiving my colours ;-). I should woop your a$$ boy =P. I wonder if anybody will bother reading this message... Hmmm

#11 dwarfsoft   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1214

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Posted 09 November 2000 - 05:06 PM

LOL! I agree... I WANNA KNOW LF!

As for influencing stories... What about the game I am working on at the moment. Teaches people not to trust in their beliefs on stereotypes... I think that is an important first step, then I will move onto more moral issues (well, if genocide wasn''t counted a vast moral issue that is )
I bet you thought I would have left a hidden message here... HA! I did =P
-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          


#12 Nazrix   Members   -  Reputation: 307

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Posted 09 November 2000 - 05:12 PM

quote:
Original post by dwarfsoft
Damn you! Always theiving my colours ;-). I should woop your a$$ boy =P. I wonder if anybody will bother reading this message... Hmmm



I read it!


Yeah, the game you're working on dwarf is definitely in a good direction

although it was my idea first (j/k)


"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


Edited by - Nazrix on November 9, 2000 12:13:32 AM

#13 dwarfsoft   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1214

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Posted 09 November 2000 - 05:23 PM

Hmmm.. It is also a combination of the modelling of the ideas of the doc in conjunction with a lot of crazy whacked out storyline (thoughtfully inspired by none-other-than LF ) and basically on crack on the whole.
Yeah, sure you can take credit for it naz... I don''t believ you =)
I think we are getting a little OT... We should at least stay half on topic...

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          





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