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My futuristic idea about colonizing Mars and Venus


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#1 Raduprv   Members   -  Reputation: 997

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:08 AM

As you know, Nasa is planning to send humans on Mars in 2050 or so. Mars suffers from not enough atmosphere. If it had a denser atmosphere (especially greenhouse gases such as methane and CO2) the temperature there would be warmer, and the pressue would be better suited for life forms. On the other hand, Venus has a lot of CO2, and the pressure and temperature are too much for known life forms (especially for humans). For the time being we do not have the technology to do this, but with the advancements in nano technology and new materials, wouldn't it be possible in the future (maybe 500 years from now) to build some very elastic and flexible pipe between those two planets, and pump the CO2 from Venus to Mars? If we could manage to do that, both Mars and Venus would have a climate pretty close to the one on Earth, so we could colonize them without building space domes and stuff like that. We could directly walk on their surface, without any protective gear.

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#2 choffstein   Members   -  Reputation: 1090

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:10 AM

Or, for the next 50 years, we could just send our smog to Mars. I like that idea more.

#3 Raduprv   Members   -  Reputation: 997

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:11 AM

Quote:
Original post by visage
Or, for the next 50 years, we could just send our smog to Mars. I like that idea more.


Yeah, if we could pack it nicely and transport it there :)

#4 AnonymousPosterChild   Members   -  Reputation: 168

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:11 AM

No. Due to problems in the core of Mars itself, it would not be able to sustain an atmosphere.

--edit--

Also, that pipe would cost more to build and maintain than constant round trips between the planets.
With love, AnonymousPosterChild

#5 ranakor   Members   -  Reputation: 439

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:12 AM

now where'd you find enuff material to build such a long yet flexible tube that'd be large enought not to take eons to pump the atmothphere?

#6 Vanke   Members   -  Reputation: 100

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:15 AM

This won't work. It would work if....
Both mars and venus orbited the sun in sync.
You could manufacture a hose that was millions of kilometres long.
You could manufacture pumps strong enough to transfer atmosphere from one planet to another.
WE could breathe acid, since that's what the atmosphere of venus is.

#7 wilhil   Members   -  Reputation: 540

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:20 AM

I do not really understand nano technology, but from what I think I know, the ability for it to reshape molecules, and basically make anything from anything by rearanging it, surly if we send some nanites? (thats what they are called in some sci fi shows?) then would they be able to restructure the atmosphere in to whatever it is needed?

from what I saw on a scifi show, viable nano tech would be available in less than 20 years, someone said they have the ability to do it now, but they have no proof.

frankly I think it would be good but not allowed, if terrorists get them, or basically anyone who it is not intended, they could make genecide really easy... on the other hand, if they are used properally, it could be a golden age! (well if I had some, it would be a diamond age here! only joking!)

#8 AnonymousPosterChild   Members   -  Reputation: 168

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:24 AM

Quote:
Original post by wilhil
I do not really understand nano technology, but from what I think I know, the ability for it to reshape molecules, and basically make anything from anything by rearanging it, surly if we send some nanites? (thats what they are called in some sci fi shows?) then would they be able to restructure the atmosphere in to whatever it is needed?

from what I saw on a scifi show, viable nano tech would be available in less than 20 years, someone said they have the ability to do it now, but they have no proof.

frankly I think it would be good but not allowed, if terrorists get them, or basically anyone who it is not intended, they could make genecide really easy... on the other hand, if they are used properally, it could be a golden age! (well if I had some, it would be a diamond age here! only joking!)


Quote:
Original post by Raduprv
As you know, Nasa is planning to send humans on Mars in 2050 or so.
Mars suffers from not enough atmosphere. If it had a denser atmosphere (especially greenhouse gases such as methane and CO2) the temperature there would be warmer, and the pressue would be better suited for life forms.

On the other hand, Venus has a lot of CO2, and the pressure and temperature are too much for known life forms (especially for humans).

For the time being we do not have the technology to do this, but with the advancements in nano technology and new materials, wouldn't it be possible in the future (maybe 500 years from now) to build some very elastic and flexible pipe between those two planets, and pump the CO2 from Venus to Mars?
If we could manage to do that, both Mars and Venus would have a climate pretty close to the one on Earth, so we could colonize them without building space domes and stuff like that. We could directly walk on their surface, without any protective gear.


Hi, I'm Daniel Grinton, but most of you know me as AnonymousPosterChild or "That jackass who keeps posting on gamedev." I'm here to talk to you all about a serious issue that plagues us all:

The lack of proper funding and classes in our public schools.

As you can see in the 2 above posts, neither of these children have any idea what they're talking about. This needs to end. Please consider making a cash donation to your local schools. We need to eliminate this sort of ignorance once and for all.

Thank you for your time.
With love, AnonymousPosterChild

#9 wilhil   Members   -  Reputation: 540

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:28 AM

Excuse me, but I started by saying I dont know much about nano tech, and everything that I was talking about, I saw on the discovery chanel last night, I thought it was a joke, but they were going on about nano tech and how it would soon be available.

#10 Pouya   Members   -  Reputation: 869

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:31 AM

Quote:
Original post by Raduprv
[...] build some very elastic and flexible pipe between those two planets, and pump the CO2 from Venus to Mars? [...]

This is the funniest thing I've read for the whole day.
Rating++ for the good joke.

Quote:
Original post by Vanke
This won't work. It would work if....
Both mars and venus orbited the sun in sync.
You could manufacture a hose that was millions of kilometres long.
You could manufacture pumps strong enough to transfer atmosphere from one planet to another.
WE could breathe acid, since that's what the atmosphere of venus is.

You forgot the part where Earth would cross that pipe :D

#11 Raduprv   Members   -  Reputation: 997

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:35 AM

Quote:
Original post by AnonymousPosterChild
Hi, I'm Daniel Grinton, but most of you know me as AnonymousPosterChild or "That jackass who keeps posting on gamedev." I'm here to talk to you all about a serious issue that plagues us all:

The lack of proper funding and classes in our public schools.

As you can see in the 2 above posts, neither of these children have any idea what they're talking about. This needs to end. Please consider making a cash donation to your local schools. We need to eliminate this sort of ignorance once and for all.

Thank you for your time.


And perhaps you can enlighten us with your unsurpassed wisdom, to why this wouldn't work?

BTW, nano technology (among other things) means just engineering materials at an atomic level, like the carbon nanotubes for examples.

#12 Raduprv   Members   -  Reputation: 997

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:39 AM

Quote:
Original post by Pouya
You forgot the part where Earth would cross that pipe :D


Did I say that we would anchor the pipe on both planets? It can be left in a certain area, near the space where the planets are closest, then when they get close again next time, you just anchor them for a while, and start pumping.

#13 AnonymousPosterChild   Members   -  Reputation: 168

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:42 AM

Quote:
Original post by Raduprv
Quote:
Original post by AnonymousPosterChild
Hi, I'm Daniel Grinton, but most of you know me as AnonymousPosterChild or "That jackass who keeps posting on gamedev." I'm here to talk to you all about a serious issue that plagues us all:

The lack of proper funding and classes in our public schools.

As you can see in the 2 above posts, neither of these children have any idea what they're talking about. This needs to end. Please consider making a cash donation to your local schools. We need to eliminate this sort of ignorance once and for all.

Thank you for your time.


And perhaps you can enlighten us with your unsurpassed wisdom, to why this wouldn't work?

BTW, nano technology (among other things) means just engineering materials at an atomic level, like the carbon nanotubes for examples.


Okay.

1. The pipe itself would need to constantly be changing positions over and over again, including serveral twists around the sun. Not only would this require massive amounts of power, but the engineering would be awful.

2. You'd need to set up massive pumps in a geostationary orbit around each planet, and these pumps would need to move with the pipe in order to keep a steady flow of gas.

3. We lack the materials nessecary for such an undertaking. We're still wrapping our heads around space elevators for christ's sake.

4. From wikipedia:
Quote:

The lack of a magnetosphere surrounding Mars may have allowed the solar wind to erode the atmosphere, the relatively low gravity of Mars helping to accelerate the loss of lighter gases to space. The lack of plate tectonics on Mars is another possibility, preventing the recycling of gases locked up in sediments back into the atmosphere. The lack of magnetic field and geologic activity may both be a result of Mars' smaller size allowing its interior to cool more quickly than Earth's, though the details of such processes are still unrealised.


So now we know that Mars cant even HOLD an atmosphere. Yeah, good plan.

5. Why not use geodesic domes? They're cheaper, easier to maintain that a several hundred million mile pipe, and a hell of a lot cheaper.

6. Debris will be an issue too. This pipe is going to twist along a lot of orbits, and will intersect with a lot of debris paths. This would tear the pipe apart.

7. A pipe is a stupid idea anyways. It'd be a hell of a lot easier to make a fleet of ships and have them run between transfer orbits. Ships can alter course to make sure they dont run into larger debris, we can easily make them in large numbers, as opposed to a giant pipe, and they'd be able to run actual supplies to and from each planet.
With love, AnonymousPosterChild

#14 AnonymousPosterChild   Members   -  Reputation: 168

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:45 AM

Quote:
Original post by Raduprv
Quote:
Original post by Pouya
You forgot the part where Earth would cross that pipe :D


Did I say that we would anchor the pipe on both planets? It can be left in a certain area, near the space where the planets are closest, then when they get close again next time, you just anchor them for a while, and start pumping.


Problems:

1. Now you've got a system that can only work when the planets align. This only happens every... fuck, I'll have to do the math later. Let me put it this way, you've not got a system that can only work when the planets are on just the right orbit, will not be able to pump long enough to transfer any materials, and will only function when the planets are on the right rotation.
With love, AnonymousPosterChild

#15 Raduprv   Members   -  Reputation: 997

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:49 AM

Quote:
Original post by AnonymousPosterChild
1. The pipe itself would need to constantly be changing positions over and over again, including serveral twists around the sun. Not only would this require massive amounts of power, but the engineering would be awful.

Well, yeah, I never said it would be easy or cheap or even doable with the current technology.

Quote:

2. You'd need to set up massive pumps in a geostationary orbit around each planet, and these pumps would need to move with the pipe in order to keep a steady flow of gas.

See the above answer.

Quote:

3. We lack the materials nessecary for such an undertaking. We're still wrapping our heads around space elevators for christ's sake.

Again, see the previous answer.

Quote:

4. From wikipedia:
Quote:

The lack of a magnetosphere surrounding Mars may have allowed the solar wind to erode the atmosphere, the relatively low gravity of Mars helping to accelerate the loss of lighter gases to space. The lack of plate tectonics on Mars is another possibility, preventing the recycling of gases locked up in sediments back into the atmosphere. The lack of magnetic field and geologic activity may both be a result of Mars' smaller size allowing its interior to cool more quickly than Earth's, though the details of such processes are still unrealised.

We don't know for sure if Mars ever had an atmosphere (bigger than the one it has today)
The gravity not being enough, that's BS, Titan has an atmosphere, right?

Quote:

So now we know that Mars cant even HOLD an atmosphere. Yeah, good plan.

Oh, we KNOW? What a definite answer we have here. Any proofs? Notice how the Wikipedia article uses the term "may have allowed".

Quote:

5. Why not use geodesic domes? They're cheaper, easier to maintain that a several hundred million mile pipe, and a hell of a lot cheaper.

How would they transport the gas?

Quote:

6. Debris will be an issue too. This pipe is going to twist along a lot of orbits, and will intersect with a lot of debris paths. This would tear the pipe apart.

Yes, but by that time we might have stronger materials.

Quote:

7. A pipe is a stupid idea anyways. It'd be a hell of a lot easier to make a fleet of ships and have them run between transfer orbits. Ships can alter course to make sure they dont run into larger debris, we can easily make them in large numbers, as opposed to a giant pipe, and they'd be able to run actual supplies to and from each planet.


Yes, that is another posibility, but I am not sure if we could ever have so many ships to transport that much atmosphere.

BTW, I bet that if you would have told someone 500 years ago about how in the future we'll have transatlantic fiber optics networks, that person would have laughed his ass off.

#16 Servant of the Lord   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 22723

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:53 AM

Quote:
Original post by AnonymousPosterChild
5. Why not use geodesic domes? They're cheaper, easier to maintain that a several hundred million mile pipe, and a hell of a lot cheaper.


You used cheaper twice. Lol.

It was just a Idea they had, abad idea but a idea none the less. Don't be so hard on them, anom.

My two & a half cents:
By the time we have such tecnology hopefully we would be able to shift to a different point in space/time and then just find other planets like earth instead of trying to make them.


It's perfectly fine to abbreviate my username to 'Servant' rather than copy+pasting it all the time.
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#17 AnonymousPosterChild   Members   -  Reputation: 168

Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:56 AM

Quote:
Original post by Raduprv
Quote:
Original post by AnonymousPosterChild
1. The pipe itself would need to constantly be changing positions over and over again, including serveral twists around the sun. Not only would this require massive amounts of power, but the engineering would be awful.

Well, yeah, I never said it would be easy or cheap or even doable with the current technology.

Quote:

2. You'd need to set up massive pumps in a geostationary orbit around each planet, and these pumps would need to move with the pipe in order to keep a steady flow of gas.

See the above answer.

Quote:

3. We lack the materials nessecary for such an undertaking. We're still wrapping our heads around space elevators for christ's sake.

Again, see the previous answer.


And? Even in the future it would be a dumb idea, since there are better, cheaper alternatives.

Quote:

Quote:

4. From wikipedia:
Quote:

The lack of a magnetosphere surrounding Mars may have allowed the solar wind to erode the atmosphere, the relatively low gravity of Mars helping to accelerate the loss of lighter gases to space. The lack of plate tectonics on Mars is another possibility, preventing the recycling of gases locked up in sediments back into the atmosphere. The lack of magnetic field and geologic activity may both be a result of Mars' smaller size allowing its interior to cool more quickly than Earth's, though the details of such processes are still unrealised.

We don't know for sure if Mars ever had an atmosphere (bigger than the one it has today)
The gravity not being enough, that's BS, Titan has an atmosphere, right?


Same article:
"Indeed, it is thought that Mars once did have a relatively Earthlike environment early in its history, with a thicker atmosphere and abundant water that was lost over the course of hundreds of millions of years."

As for the Titan thing, there are a LOT more factors at work there than just gravity. And who am I going to believe, respected astronomers, or some idiot who wants to build a giant pipe?

Quote:

Quote:

So now we know that Mars cant even HOLD an atmosphere. Yeah, good plan.

Oh, we KNOW? What a definite answer we have here. Any proofs? Notice how the Wikipedia article uses the term "may have allowed".


Semantics != argument

Quote:

Quote:

5. Why not use geodesic domes? They're cheaper, easier to maintain that a several hundred million mile pipe, and a hell of a lot cheaper.

How would they transport the gas?


I already touched on this with my fleet transfer orbit statement.

Quote:

Quote:

6. Debris will be an issue too. This pipe is going to twist along a lot of orbits, and will intersect with a lot of debris paths. This would tear the pipe apart.

Yes, but by that time we might have stronger materials.


If its and buts were candy and nuts...

Quote:

Quote:

7. A pipe is a stupid idea anyways. It'd be a hell of a lot easier to make a fleet of ships and have them run between transfer orbits. Ships can alter course to make sure they dont run into larger debris, we can easily make them in large numbers, as opposed to a giant pipe, and they'd be able to run actual supplies to and from each planet.


Yes, that is another posibility, but I am not sure if we could ever have so many ships to transport that much atmosphere.


We arent limited by size when we build in orbit, not to mention the fact that unlike in a pipe, we could compress the gas.
With love, AnonymousPosterChild

#18 Raduprv   Members   -  Reputation: 997

Posted 22 October 2005 - 12:03 PM

Quote:
Original post by AnonymousPosterChild
Same article:
"Indeed, it is thought that Mars once did have a relatively Earthlike environment early in its history, with a thicker atmosphere and abundant water that was lost over the course of hundreds of millions of years."

I think you should go back to school and learn the English language, because apparently you can not understand that "it is thought" is different than "we know for sure".

Quote:

As for the Titan thing, there are a LOT more factors at work there than just gravity. And who am I going to believe, respected astronomers, or some idiot who wants to build a giant pipe?

See, you can spot an idiot when instead of using logic arguments he starts usign ad hominem attacks.
Believe the respect astronomers on WHAT?


Quote:

Semantics != argument


So for you "we believe" is just another way of saying "we know for sure". I see.

Quote:

If its and buts were candy and nuts...


Which is pertinent to the current conversation. I see.


Quote:

We arent limited by size when we build in orbit, not to mention the fact that unlike in a pipe, we could compress the gas.


And the compression magically makes the mass less?

#19 AnonymousPosterChild   Members   -  Reputation: 168

Posted 22 October 2005 - 12:13 PM

Quote:
Original post by Raduprv
Quote:

We arent limited by size when we build in orbit, not to mention the fact that unlike in a pipe, we could compress the gas.


And the compression magically makes the mass less?


Transfer orbits are great because they don't require the ship to provide any thrust, its all done by the gravitational pull of the other planets. The only mass you'll need to worry about is in the braking mechanism. Compression doesnt decrease mass, but it decreases size.
With love, AnonymousPosterChild

#20 extralongpants   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 704

Posted 22 October 2005 - 12:14 PM

Raduprv, you have to be the most stubborn GDNet poster I know of. I think you need to admit defeat and move on once in a while.

You present an idea (subject it to criticism), it turns out to be a bad idea. You continue to defend it, but the more you try to defend it, the weaker it becomes. You do this to yourself all the time here.

It is perfectly fine to present an idea and have it proved illogical, or to revise a bad idea based on criticism, but to defend an inherently flawed idea so vehemently is silly.

It frustrates me because you seem like a nice guy and one whom shouldn't squander all his time on such things.




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