51 replies to this topic

[Fournicolas]

The goal is PRECISELY that most players remain poor. If everyone remains poor alike, then the expensive items remain expensive, but not out of reach from everyone. And the money doesn't come from nowhere. You have to work to get it, like gather materials for the crafters with the money.

On the whole, I think some people are getting wrong right from the premises. Money is merely a convenient way to accelerate the bartering. "I'll give you five rabbit skins, and you make two pairs of gloves from them, one for you, and one for me? what do you say?" This kind of things has happened since two people were able to get in conctact. Money as minted coins only appeared rather late in History, and only as a way to make commerce easier. You could bring a coin weighing an ounce of silver from point A to point B, it would still weigh an ounce at arrival, and still have the approximate same value.

Here and now, in any MMO, you are playing some adventurer. The main occupation of any adventurer is to, well, have adventures in the wild. He doesn't produce goods, and certainly has close to no chance at all to become rich by wandering around idly. Hunting isn't the same thing as butchering, or hide gathering, or even trophies cutting. And each of these things is necessary for a community. If you want to act solo, then be prepared to starve for a while, and be equipped more or less like a caveman. Only those who can rely on others to get something they are not ready to do for themselves can go further than the cavemen.

And this is precisely what this system is aiming at: creating forced interaction. You cannot get anything better than a caveman's spear or wooden stick without gowing to find someone who can equip you with something else, and bartering it. You want a metallic weapon? Find yourself some metal, five days worth of food, THAT much coal, two rabbit skins, and we have a deal. Or maybe, if you already have had access to some other barter, and already have earned some gold for yourself, you can buy it fair and square, because the gold you will give will go round and buy the smith some food, some coal and metal ore, and possibly some more rabbit skins than what you would have given. It's commerce to you.

[_winterdyne_]

I think you should probably read 'no gold drop' as 'no gold spawning'. Of course there's nothing to stop a troll nicking all your cash when it kills you. UO used to have a system where mobs would occasionally loot a player corpse. I think it's a good idea - and it's fun to go hunting for the particular orc that looted you to get your stuff back.
Of course, a clever mob will be *using* your +4 broadsword when you see it next...

[Fournicolas]

Interesting point.

If you were to hunt "intelligent" mobs, and you died, the intelligent mobs would loot your body in the same manner you would loot theirs if you killed them. But as YOU can decide which weapon is the best to keep from dying, how could you implement this sort of behaviour in the mob's attitude? How can you get a troll to use your Broadsword +4 instead of his Bigger Club? And as a secondary question, would you gain more XP if you killed a troll using a +4 broadsword instead of one swinging half a pine?

By the way, I think you can probably find a way to uncover that thread, somewhere in the "AI FORUM" of Gamedev. It's about a simulation of natural cycle. There is something related to moving spawning points, and emergent behavior patterns there.

[_winterdyne_]

We're getting slightly off topic with the concept of intelligent mobs' weapon selection. The main point is that items are kept circulating to keep the economy ticking, and (in the case of reactive spawning / population tracking) that supply fluctuates. Without fluctuations in supply against demand, prices remain fixed and trade stagnates. If mithril is comparitively plentiful at one time, and adamantium at another (assuming they're both similar materials) you get fairly realistic trends in armour fashion (since all of a sudden one material or the other becomes much easier to maintain / replace bits of. Edit: This obviously relies that there is a correlation in decay for armour with its use - i.e. if it gets hit a lot, it gets ruined quickly.

In order to give starting players an easy foot on the ladder, and to give experienced players a niche, NPC crafter / vendors are capped at fairly low levels of skill for the most part, and don't make stuff to order, just to fill set stocks. As the game progresses, many NPC vendors come under player control (via the Guilds).

[Dreddnafious Maelstrom]

something i havent seen here that you should consider is modelling it based on actual economic theory.

the difference between most MMO's and reality is that MMO's do not implement a true scarcity of goods. most MMO's have a limitless supply of everything and simply reacts to the player base and their actions.


Gold is limitless since drops are limitless. Most crafting resources are based on limitless nodes, that respawn over time, which is a simple throttle for how much gold enters the system at a given time.


The concept isnt unique but the perceived hurdle is that no one wants to be poor in an MMO. Of course the reality is that no one want to be poor in real life either. Everyone has to be a hero in an MMO which of course means that nobody can be a hero.

Scarcity of goods combined with real consumption of end user goods will allow a stratification of income levels.

You will also be in the position to use the supply and demand metric to introduce goods trading and transport as a viable capital gains strategy.

Once travel itself becomes a quest(the caveat here being that if travel is boring and without event then the occupation will be as well) , you will begin to see a predator prey relationship on the main highways, which no MMO has accomplished since UO.(to my knowledge)

the concept requires a shift in thinking and is easily discarded because it involves taking a chance with your user-base as opposed to emulating what already works.

[_winterdyne_]

We use scarcity of resources as the main driving force for conflict and trade both within a kingdom and between kingdoms. And risk though it might be, the total worth travelling through a particular route node is an attractor for bandit NPCs, so it's well worth (if you're a lord tasked with trading with another kingdom) assigning militia quests to guard caravans as they travel - which costs money (from taxes) and equipment (bought from the Guilds)... and possibly lives (both of players and NPCs).

Of course, the opposite option is also open, for kingdoms to effectively prey on each other's trade routes (especially if you can lay the blame on another kingdom). These actions can severely harm economies, but historically, the use of sanctions and trade sabotage as a precursor to open warfare is not unprecedented.

It'll be fun to see how the different game instances pan out...

[trapdoor]

As far as crafting goes, and the NPC's supply: Dark and Light allows for players to become NPC's when they are offline. Thus allowing them to sell items while they are offline. This could also be useable as someone who has the materials to make a weapon but not the skill, can take it to an offline character to make. The player sets the rates beforehand and this can be done automatically. Keeps the currency within the players.

Also in a player controlled society (even the king is a player), what about having them control the caps to which others can sell certain items.

Travel and Trade.... I'm already tackling many other risks with the way my game works. What's another?

[Dreddnafious Maelstrom]

Quote:

Original post by trapdoor As far as crafting goes, and the NPC's supply: Dark and Light allows for players to become NPC's when they are offline. Thus allowing them to sell items while they are offline. This could also be useable as someone who has the materials to make a weapon but not the skill, can take it to an offline character to make. The player sets the rates beforehand and this can be done automatically. Keeps the currency within the players. Also in a player controlled society (even the king is a player), what about having them control the caps to which others can sell certain items. Travel and Trade.... I'm already tackling many other risks with the way my game works. What's another?

setting artificial caps for selling prices will only drive the market underground and further inflate its value.

[Bob Janova]

Yeah. Either that, or, if your enforcement process is good enough that can't happen, will result in your message boards being flooded by annoyed playerswho can't sell their carefully crafted +10 Sword of Uberness for its 'true value'. Artificial caps or controls on item value do not a fun economy make.

[Iron Chef Carnage]

You'll absolutely have to deal with the fact that players use their wallet as a score counter. The longer they play and the tougher they get, the bigger they expect that number to become. They demand that they accrue wealth and assets as a visible manifestation of their superiority to newbies.

Since all the MMO economies to date have rewarded them for that, it's pretty much guaranteed that players will be disappointed by the omission of that dynamic from future games.

Yojimbo was the baddest dude in Japan, but he didn't have a fat wallet and an inventory filled with lewt. He had a sword that was probably of moderate quality, having been issued one back when he was employed, a threadbare hakama and a worn kimono, which he had probably patched himself on numerous occasions. For all that, he was uber. You'll never see that kind of tough guy in an MMO.

The basic misconception that every player deserves to be King Arthur is at the root of the economy problem. If you get rid of the notion that everyone is entitled to hero status and should be wearing six gold crowns and wielding an enchanted sword made of dragon teeth by their fourth month in-game, then everything else falls into place.

The economy isn't an economy, it's a metagame, a second grind. Players expect to be rewarded for killing mobs, and they expect that reward to accumulate and unlock new graphical treats, stat boni and bragging rights. That's the dynamic we're contending with.

[Luckless]

EVE online's system seems to work fairly well. I'm not sure how many of the items are player made, there are still lots that are dropped from loot, and lots of ISK (isk being the money, what isk stands for, i never did find out) are generated from bounties.

However the game also has lots of money sinks. To craft isn't just a matter of getting items X Y and Z which anyone can come across in their travels, put them in a window and hit the magic button. In that game, first off you need to buy blueprints, or copies of them (copies can only be run so many times before they degrade and you can't use them) which cost a fair bit for even simple things, and massive amounts of money for larger ships.
From there you then need the resources to build them, for ships this is thousands of units of minerals that are mined and refined, some are easy to find, nearly worthless for each, but needing loads of them. Others only need one or two units for things, but are hard to get, only mineable in dangerous places.

The big sinks in the game are while your ships are insureable, your weapons aren't. Lose your ship, you lose millions in good weapons. And you WILL lose your ship, many many times. Eventually you'll get your ass kicked by a bigger player, or make a mistake and bite off more than you can chew in a fight. However, the rule in that game is "Don't fly something you can't replace" easy enough. Losing a ship isn't really that bad, as most people if they have a weekend to play can usually make enough to replace your new ship in a day using it wisely.
Later as your character gets older, chances are you'll join a corp/guild, and there are costs with that as well. Usually most corps will want their own station, which costs a lot to keep running, taxes and fuel costs and the like. After that there is the chance of getting into wars with other players, which isn't a nice thing.

I guess the big thing is to rig a system where the player spends money they get without feeling like they are wasing it. Repairing their sword, or armour, buying a better quality armour, paying for training for new skills, paying rent on a room to store their loot in, rent on a manor house, taxes to a king for a castle somewhere. Pay for NPC allies, guards for your manor house/castles, craftsmen to work resources gathered from your lands, etc.

As a character grows, he should be able to gain more and more money, however give them more and more things to spend their money on.

[Bob Janova]

Quote:

You'll absolutely have to deal with the fact that players use their wallet as a score counter. The longer they play and the tougher they get, the bigger they expect that number to become. They demand that they accrue wealth and assets as a visible manifestation of their superiority to newbies.

Then give 'em a score counter that's not linked to their spending power! Award notoriety points for winning in PvP, hero points for slaying enemies, diplomacy points for being in an important political post. Make it so your wealth is not visible to other people but these other score points are.

[Servant of the Lord]

I don't really have much to say, but I thought some of you might want to read this. It is a post on the EQ cleric forums from a (now former)gold farmer, and his logic on how it effects a game. Sorry if someone already posted it, I didn't read through the posts.

[Fournicolas]

As far as I am concerned, Money has NEVER been an enticing thing. In games, adventure and excitement has, and I'll grant you that having money can buy you stuff that will aloow my character to get to more exciting content. And in Real Life, Comfort is the goal, which can only be accessed via Money. But having money and nothing to spend it on just seems... stupid. If I have nothing to get from it, then I don't need it. If I get nothing more from my money, then why do I raise from my bed every morning and go to work? Why not sit there and just watch the birds sing?

What I was trying to make plain, is that the very mechanic behind the crafter gameplay is wrong. You shouldn't try to become a crafter just to become rich, you should choose to become a crafter because you feel it's more fun than to run after critters and empty their pockets. But right now, I can't think of a game, apart from Yohoho! Pirates, that makes crafting fun. There is no f***ing GAME to it!! You just pile resources in a box, and click. Of course, if the only reward you can expect from being a crafter is becoming immensely rich, then have your satisfaction, and do become rich. But if the satisfaction was "make the best looking sword", or "make the most resistant armor", or merely "enjoy the fun crafting system", money wouldn't be a trouble.

Moreover, just to drive the nail all the way, in the REAL world, there IS a very finite amount of money, even if some banks seem able to produce more than they can cash out, and some people still manage to become rich, merely by producing things people just want to buy, and are not prepared to produce for themselves. It should take skills to become rich, and not just time. You shouldn't be jealous of older players, just of BETTER players, and they shouldn't be better just because they are older. Being jealous of older people is a thing you do when you're five or six. When you grow, you know there is nothing to be jealous about, because everybody reaches that point eventually.

In fact, I think games would be immensely more enjoyable if they weren't aimed at making everyone special, and only allowed one or two of their customers to become special, just because they were there at the right moment. Many people can report UFOs sightings. But only the first one will leave his name in history. A bunch of people walked on the moon. And the world only remembers two of them. Once it's been done, it's nothing new. I don't understand why people seem to spot the fact that MMOs are a grind, and still be completely blind to the fact that being a grind, it cannot make them any special...

[trapdoor]

A few people have pointed out now (maybe i'm getting mixed up with a few of my other 30+ posts :) ) that maybe having uber loot set that is hard to get, say take about a half a year to a year to collect is not something to be done. Everyone does it but is it really necessary? Maybe just having money really hard to come by, and almost unnecessary to half the players. Ok. I'm not sure how to bring my point across without describing things I don't find realistic, that I find just bizarre. I'll also tell of a scenario that I'd like to see happen and maybe get suggestions on how to accomplish this. don't worry, i'll related this to economics in a minute.

All the professions. They all seem fake. The only one I can see is enchanting and maybe herbalism. I don't understand how a druid or priest would learn skinning and leatherworking, or a warrior as an engineer. A hunter as a skinner and leather worker YES! But seriously. Druids are supposed to be one with nature, or at least in my perspective.

Miners, I don't see how anyone can be a miner. Miner is a career. In Warcraft or Age of Empires, you didn't send fighters to get minerals. You sent your basic workers.

Crafting is supposed to take much longer than 20 seconds to make a weapon or anything for that matter. Crafting should be a skill that the player actually learns, as opposed to it being an ability... let me explain. I once played Disney's Toontown. And I remember one thing that striked me as amazing. When fishing, you don't just cast and sit. Once you're bobble thing moves, you reel it in. You actually reeled it in, not point and click, done. There was a meter that would show if you were reeling too fast or too slow and you had to adjust acordingly. What if crafting was done similarly? Almost like a puzzle every time something was crafted. Obviously the puzzle will be related. And this could also affect what stats the sword gets. Wether it's a well crafted sword, or just a plain one that's a little off-balance.

I guess another thing to note, is that I don't want this game to be traditional. Semi-realistic and fun, but not fit into the cookie-cutter style of MMO's. People want to craft for money, but there are some that actually like to craft. Let the ones who are interested in action, be the ones using the swords, while the ones wanting to support via making the swords do so as well.

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I will come back to crafting and professions but I'm going to describe something else for a minute. The money. What about having money only useful for menial things? Another note for this game, I want the character to HAVE to sleep. This can be done automatically when the person logs off, but if they pull a 48 hour shift, then their character is going to suck afer 12 hours of constant fighting. (This may affect those using multiple people to level fast.) Their characters have to eat, again this can be done when logging off. But bonuses to eating lasts 4-5 hours and you can also over eat (negative effects). Travelling via a taxi of some kind costs money as do buying food and sleeping in an inn (if you are away from your home). Potions and training may cost money and weapons will be minimal (if buying from an NPC vendor). Other than that, there's not much else to spend money on... so you don't need all that much. Oh... and taxes where your home is.

Now why have money? Because there are a few players that NEED money. These are people in political positions. Not everyone will as politics denotes little action or at least front line action. The money they gather from taxes will go towards building defenses, hiring NPC guards (nobody wants to be a guard), and other various money spending things.

Now this is where it ties into crafting. If a trade is done between 2 people and the exchange is money, then maybe forcing a percentage to go to the politians as a sales tax. The only way to allow a trade without money is to let the customer perform a service... such as guarding a miner while they gather ore. Protecting the caravan as they transport the ore to the crafter. (Which is how crafters get their materials). You keep the menial tasks to NPCs. Or some Roleplaying Crafters can have people perform rights of worthiness to see if they are worthy of owning a sword. Now I have no clue if people will catch on or ignore or exploit this kind of system but here's the scenario which I would like to duplicate (I had many inspirations up to now about how the economy should work).

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5% of the player base (could be bigger) are the rich ones. They are rich because they have power. Since they have power, they are also responsible for protecting those underneath them. They are the politians. People are more than welcome to gripe and complain, even take matters into their own hands because who really likes politians? Power hungry players may like to play as politians. Forget about how such a system would work but imagine it already does. So the most costly of all items in the game are things that only politians can get. A new set of barracks, extra guards, Seige weapons...

? % of the player base will be crafters. They don't need a whole lot of money. Maybe they can use money to purchase materials from others. But their main interest is materials to craft with. Again, I don't know how to get this result but maybe make it so they'd prefer to materials over money. Since there is a sales tax on every trade crafters do, they want to stay away from that kind of thing. Any chance they get to have someone escort some materials to them, they'd take that over just selling something.

Majority % of player base will be adventurer's. They only need as much money to survive off of. Again, since the cost of weapons from crafters will be high, to make up for tax, it should be easier and better for players to escort caravans delivering materials. All they need is a small income of money to cover various small things as I mentioned before. That and to cover the reoccuring tax from the powers that be.

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Maybe somehow make the underlying currency actually a service instead of a material.

[Iron Chef Carnage]

There was a neat thread about this somewhere, and the suggestion was that two games be made. One would be a sim game, where players would farm and manage assets and mine minerals and smith gear and amuse themselves with weather and crops and Harvest Moon-ish things. The other game, using a different client, a different account but the same server cluster, would be the traditional MMO. MMO players would see farms and shops as uninteractive elements, just fences to be vaulted or storefronts to be patronized. Sim players would see MMO players as customers and employees on spreadsheets and in stores.

There'd be no way for PvP players to grief the producers (My mining corp in EvE is now embroiled in arbitrary grief war #4. Productivity is wrecked, profit is down, and the twelve-year-old losers with nothing better to do than shoot unarmed ships and pop a three-inch boner are immune to reason, since they just grief for fun. Bastards.) so there'd be only the most superficial contact between the two games, but the economy would spring from an actual supply chain system, and buy prices for mob loot and resources that can only be obtained through adventuring would fluctuate based on demand. Likewise, the cost of a sword would go up if demons infested the iron mine and nobody could get in there to collect ore.

Sim players could put out bounties on NPC critters that are eating their lettuce, or offer equipment as rewards for doing favors, basically filling the role currently occupied by NPC characters.

[Hawkins8]

Quote:

Original post by Iron Chef Carnage There was a neat thread about this somewhere, and the suggestion was that two games be made. One would be a sim game, where players would farm and manage assets and mine minerals and smith gear and amuse themselves with weather and crops and Harvest Moon-ish things. The other game, using a different client, a different account but the same server cluster, would be the traditional MMO. MMO players would see farms and shops as uninteractive elements, just fences to be vaulted or storefronts to be patronized. Sim players would see MMO players as customers and employees on spreadsheets and in stores. There'd be no way for PvP players to grief the producers (My mining corp in EvE is now embroiled in arbitrary grief war #4. Productivity is wrecked, profit is down, and the twelve-year-old losers with nothing better to do than shoot unarmed ships and pop a three-inch boner are immune to reason, since they just grief for fun. Bastards.) so there'd be only the most superficial contact between the two games, but the economy would spring from an actual supply chain system, and buy prices for mob loot and resources that can only be obtained through adventuring would fluctuate based on demand. Likewise, the cost of a sword would go up if demons infested the iron mine and nobody could get in there to collect ore. Sim players could put out bounties on NPC critters that are eating their lettuce, or offer equipment as rewards for doing favors, basically filling the role currently occupied by NPC characters.

My current games has a similar design to include both into the MMO environment. As a char's kingdom ranking climbing up, he's entitled to obtain a piece of land used for the "sim" purpose, more like a mini game or mini grind where you manage a virtual village/city to grow crops of different types.

Not much graphics in such a "sim" environment, more like a strategic game. The crops are used as raw materials for special types of weapons, armors, decorative items and etc, a separate set of items usually are not as practical as the other games items/gears, but with a special appearance. Rich players having excess money will usually buy them, just because they look special. They are expensive, especially in the case of a uber one.