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Chaos Game Engine


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#1 tunabun   Members   -  Reputation: 122

Posted 05 June 2007 - 11:38 AM

I would like to make sure everyone here is fully aware that the "Chaos Game Engine" and anything associated with its company, the owners, and all software are a scam. Colton Burgess is the well known con artist responsible for the game Mourning. Also known by many other names this game and the engine are far from legit. Please, if you are able spread the word on this, far too many media sites are propagating this tricksters lies and the only conclusion is for more people to be duped. Once everyone learns how to recognize this guy and his various scams it will be easy to shut his attempts down. Need more info? Head over to www.mmorpg.com or search google and start doing your own research.

Sponsor:

#2 acidwillburnyou   Members   -  Reputation: 100

Posted 05 June 2007 - 02:27 PM

Ok.

#3 Benjamin Heath   Members   -  Reputation: 925

Posted 05 June 2007 - 02:59 PM

... Thanks.

*files that away*

Actually, without brow-beating, could you instead say specifically what you mean, just for those who care and for your own credibility? Honestly, I see something called "Chaos Engine" and my deciding response is to back away. The name sounds not-right. My opinion.

#4 load_bitmap_file   Members   -  Reputation: 826

Posted 05 June 2007 - 03:00 PM

I barely got any hits searching on good for "Chaos game engine". Didn't find anything besides their own press release. Its website certainly makes a lot of bold claims though..


EDIT: The feature list" pdf from the website is odd. Lots of typos/grammar errors/sentences that don't make any sense, and continues claiming AMAZING while at the same time offering just about zero technical information, or any other important information for that matter. It does have screenshots of what appear to be functional editors though. Seems awfully suspicious anyway. To the OP, do you have any direct links about how this is a scam?

#5 Benjamin Heath   Members   -  Reputation: 925

Posted 05 June 2007 - 03:24 PM

Quote:
Original post by load_bitmap_file
I barely got any hits searching on good for "Chaos game engine". Didn't find anything besides their own press release. Its website certainly makes a lot of bold claims though..


EDIT: The feature list" pdf from the website is odd. Lots of typos/grammar errors/sentences that don't make any sense, and continues claiming AMAZING while at the same time offering just about zero technical information, or any other important information for that matter. It does have screenshots of what appear to be functional editors though. Seems awfully suspicious anyway. To the OP, do you have any direct links about how this is a scam?
Here is an interview at mmosite.com, and it looks like tunabun has comments at the bottom.

Again, the accusation's there, but where's the evidence? Where's the scam?

EDIT: Actually, I did find one link that has something interesting: Here, this Colton Burgess is asked directly about this engine/platform/thingy. It basically uses OpenGL and zoning. Yay.

Scam might be the wrong word to use, here.

[Edited by - Benjamin Heath on June 5, 2007 9:24:57 PM]

#6 ViLiO   Members   -  Reputation: 1326

Posted 05 June 2007 - 03:32 PM

Looks like it does appear to be some sort of scam (mmorpg.com)

Looks like it has gone under the names Age of Mourning and Thones of Chaos in the past. They do have some pretty screenshots though so I would be surprised if a reputable publisher wouldn't be interested in talking to them to get the game polished and published.

[Edited by - ViLiO on June 5, 2007 10:32:43 PM]

#7 troypowell   Members   -  Reputation: 97

Posted 06 June 2007 - 09:30 AM

Quote:
Original post by tunabun
I would like to make sure everyone here is fully aware that the "Chaos Game Engine" and anything associated with its company, the owners, and all software are a scam.

Colton Burgess is the well known con artist responsible for the game Mourning. Also known by many other names this game and the engine are far from legit. Please, if you are able spread the word on this, far too many media sites are propagating this tricksters lies and the only conclusion is for more people to be duped.

Once everyone learns how to recognize this guy and his various scams it will be easy to shut his attempts down.

Need more info? Head over to www.mmorpg.com or search google and start doing your own research.


I felt the need to address this ridiculous claim that the Chaos Game Engine is a fraud. The Chaos Game engine was purchased from Loud Ant Software over 6 months ago along with assets from a mmog game called Thrones of Chaos. The game Thrones of Chaos has been dismantled and all the assets have been sold to third parties. The game Thrones of Chaos had a long history of problems, none of which we were any apart of. The engine and tools, which was the main reason we purchased the assets, is the product we have salvaged and continue to develop.

There is a PDF on our site which outlines the general features. There is also an engine demonstration which prospective companies look at before they purchase the technology. We are not selling a low end hobbyist solution here and companies do their due diligence when purchasing technology of this cost.

I invite anyone to contact me with any questions they may have about the engine or any questions in general. I have explained all this to this tunabun person before and even offered to talk to him on the phone, but he rather continues to spread his nonsense.

Thank you,
Troy Powell
Chaos Software
troy@chaosgameengine.com
www.chaosgameengine.com
Phone: 800-384-5913
Fax: 866-855-9806

[Edited by - troypowell on June 6, 2007 3:30:53 PM]

#8 nilkn   Members   -  Reputation: 960

Posted 06 June 2007 - 10:14 AM

I don't have much to say except that your features PDF has several spelling mistakes (e.g., multyplayer, sistem).

#9 CTar   Members   -  Reputation: 1134

Posted 06 June 2007 - 10:32 AM

NOTE: Since you talk about yourself as a serious company who plan to sell real software, I won't really try to be nice, because honestly what you have doesn't look professional at all.

Quote:
and an engine demo

You mean the screenshots? While it's nice to see some work done it just doesn't seem like a lot considering what the chaos engine tries to be.

Quote:
as well as documents which prospective companies can look at before they purchase the full version of the engine.

Non-public right? If they are public where do we find them?

Quote:
We are not selling a low end engine here and believe me when i say companies do their due diligence when purchasing an engine of this cost.

What companies have bought it? In an interview on mmosite.com one unnamed client is mentioned, but that is it. Also could you give us any hint about the cost or is that secret? I'm curious whether you try to sell it at the same price as engines like the Unreal Engine or if you are in the $1,000-$10,000 range.


Honestly everything about the Chaos Engine looks like a scam. Links in focus on your page is basically the same color as the background; great design! I don't know if it's a Firefox issue, but the headings look terrible too because there is a problem with the images (a great deal of professional developers use Firefox). Looking at the background of your document you don't seem to grasp the problems with scaling a small pixel-based image to be much larger.

Also I suggest proof-reading your documents before releasing them. You spelled system wrong for gods sake (like 10 times). You spelled development wrong which is in your page header. You use terminology which I doubt you understand yourself, for instance what the heck is object oriented trees? You mean a tree working with objects? Then you just say tree, but a tree isn't really a collision detection implementation. Also there isn't a standard "range-based" collision detection algorithm so saying stuff like that gives us no information whatsoever. What are chargeable settings by the way? If you make up your own words and phrases you really need to explain them. I don't go out saying I have a new game featuring "clothes-increase-shade-buffers accelerated by a tree BUS with my innovative bit-based algorithm"

You make stupid statements like saying Lua (which you spelled wrong by the way) is the best language. A professional company don't make stupid statements like that.

A Linux-based server? Way to go for a big audience. You really let the developers get their own vision.

It's also kind of a problem that you provide no real information at all in that document. You don't even mention shaders once. You need to convince developers, not players.

If I was looking for an engine I doubt I would even contact you.

#10 troypowell   Members   -  Reputation: 97

Posted 06 June 2007 - 12:49 PM

[quote]Original post by troypowell
Quote:
Original post by CTar
NOTE: Since you talk about yourself as a serious company who plan to sell real software, I won't really try to be nice, because honestly what you have doesn't look professional at all.

Quote:
and an engine demo

You mean the screenshots? While it's nice to see some work done it just doesn't seem like a lot considering what the chaos engine tries to be.

Quote:
as well as documents which prospective companies can look at before they purchase the full version of the engine.

Non-public right? If they are public where do we find them?

Quote:
We are not selling a low end engine here and believe me when i say companies do their due diligence when purchasing an engine of this cost.

What companies have bought it? In an interview on mmosite.com one unnamed client is mentioned, but that is it. Also could you give us any hint about the cost or is that secret? I'm curious whether you try to sell it at the same price as engines like the Unreal Engine or if you are in the $1,000-$10,000 range.


Honestly everything about the Chaos Engine looks like a scam. Links in focus on your page is basically the same color as the background; great design! I don't know if it's a Firefox issue, but the headings look terrible too because there is a problem with the images (a great deal of professional developers use Firefox). Looking at the background of your document you don't seem to grasp the problems with scaling a small pixel-based image to be much larger.

Also I suggest proof-reading your documents before releasing them. You spelled system wrong for gods sake (like 10 times). You spelled development wrong which is in your page header. You use terminology which I doubt you understand yourself, for instance what the heck is object oriented trees? You mean a tree working with objects? Then you just say tree, but a tree isn't really a collision detection implementation. Also there isn't a standard "range-based" collision detection algorithm so saying stuff like that gives us no information whatsoever. What are chargeable settings by the way? If you make up your own words and phrases you really need to explain them. I don't go out saying I have a new game featuring "clothes-increase-shade-buffers accelerated by a tree BUS with my innovative bit-based algorithm"

You make stupid statements like saying Lua (which you spelled wrong by the way) is the best language. A professional company don't make stupid statements like that.

A Linux-based server? Way to go for a big audience. You really let the developers get their own vision.

It's also kind of a problem that you provide no real information at all in that document. You don't even mention shaders once. You need to convince developers, not players.

If I was looking for an engine I doubt I would even contact you.


Thanks for the input. We have a 800 meg demo and the screen shots are from within the demo. I do apologize for the errors in the documents. English is my second language and I made the mistake of writing the documentation for the website; we are getting that fixed right now. We have sold 3 licenses so far. Our engine has not sold then less 50,000 usd a license. This is why it is hard for me to believe anyone would think this is a scam. The companies do a lot of research and want to see many things before they make a purchase.

#11 ranakor   Members   -  Reputation: 439

Posted 06 June 2007 - 03:17 PM

am i the only one who thinks this is just a way to plug his engine here? some dude who registered 2 days ago post about something we have no reason to care about out of nowhever and oh miracle , the maker of said thing somehow fanatically googles his own engine name all day to see where it gets posted about & defend it & comes create an account here to defend it! this so totally definately doesn't sound like a crappy commercial (hint , the site name might have misled you , no one here is likely to buy a 50K usd licence for anything)

#12 ViLiO   Members   -  Reputation: 1326

Posted 06 June 2007 - 03:34 PM

Quote:
Original post by ranakor
am i the only one who thinks this is just a way to plug his engine here? some dude who registered 2 days ago post about something we have no reason to care about out of nowhever and oh miracle , the maker of said thing somehow fanatically googles his own engine name all day to see where it gets posted about & defend it & comes create an account here to defend it! this so totally definately doesn't sound like a crappy commercial (hint , the site name might have misled you , no one here is likely to buy a 50K usd licence for anything)

I would be willing to bet that most of the GDNet members who have read this thread now think his "engine" is a scam. So, if what you say was indeed his plan to get some sales, it was a seriously crappy plan [lol]

Disclaimer: I am not actually willing to bet ;)

#13 Joel Longanecker   Members   -  Reputation: 100

Posted 06 June 2007 - 03:52 PM

Is it compatable with second life? This is very important.

#14 Corman   Members   -  Reputation: 556

Posted 06 June 2007 - 10:17 PM

Having actually tested the engine myself out back when it was the Abyssal Engine it wasn't all that bad but not quiet what I expected based on the hype and spin. This is not saying that it is bad but more along the lines that it could still be rather usefull for some company that actually had the funds and wanted to save time if it fit their wants and needs. Even though this is a game development site most of the people here are not truely involved with projects with budgets that even come close to the price of this technology or any other commercial middleware for that matter. With that said most people here need to chill down a bit. Most of the people that usually are angry at this sort of thing are the ones who want everything like this product promises handed over to them for next to nothing. I have seen people talk down a product in hopes to then turn around and practically beg for it at dirt cheap prices because they conviced the people at large thats what it was really worth to back them up. As for the mention of other licensors if I remember correctly the Tshwane University of Technology aquired a license for this as well back when it was the Abyssal Engine developed by Quad Software LTD.

#15 BushHatesBlacks   Banned   -  Reputation: 100

Posted 07 June 2007 - 12:05 AM

CTar - the site looks and works perfectly fine for me in both IE and Firefox.
you sound like one of those disgruntled hobbyists who think they know what they're talking about but 9 times out of 10 don't. Why don't you go back to using WorldForge or something? I am sure something like that is better suited for your pocket book.
This stuff is in the same class range as HeroEngine and if it ever does get some kinda open source variation of it you would be the first one in line to download.

The same company who built the core of this engine long ago also licenses out a really awesome terrain editor tool called Grome.

http://www.quadsoftware.com/index.php?m=section&sec=product&subsec=editor

they also done work for companies like NCsoft on games like Guild Wars.

#16 MindWipe   Members   -  Reputation: 940

Posted 07 June 2007 - 12:26 AM

Quote:
Original post by BushHatesBlacks
CTar - the site looks and works perfectly fine for me in both IE and Firefox.
you sound like one of those disgruntled hobbyists who think they know what they're talking about but 9 times out of 10 don't. Why don't you go back to using WorldForge or something? I am sure something like that is better suited for your pocket book.
This stuff is in the same class range as HeroEngine and if it ever does get some kinda open source variation of it you would be the first one in line to download.

The same company who built the core of this engine long ago also licenses out a really awesome terrain editor tool called Grome.

http://www.quadsoftware.com/index.php?m=section&sec=product&subsec=editor

they also done work for companies like NCsoft on games like Guild Wars.


I doubt anyone will get an engine from a guy who has the nick "BushHatesBlacks"...

/MindWipe

PS. Yes, the IPs are the same

#17 genx56   Banned   -  Reputation: 100

Posted 07 June 2007 - 01:54 AM

The same way no one buys music produced by Kanye West after he said that same
thing on National TV. Right? You must be pro republican.

Guild Wars credits page:
http://www.guildwars.com/support/contactinfo/factionscredits.php

Quad Software credited

#18 ShotgunNinja   Members   -  Reputation: 102

Posted 07 June 2007 - 02:39 AM

Quote:
Original post by troypowell
Quote:
Original post by tunabun
I would like to make sure everyone here is fully aware that the "Chaos Game Engine" and anything associated with its company, the owners, and all software are a scam.

Quote:
By Shotgun Ninja: A bit harsh, don't you think?


Colton Burgess is the well known con artist responsible for the game Mourning. Also known by many other names this game and the engine are far from legit. Please, if you are able spread the word on this, far too many media sites are propagating this tricksters lies and the only conclusion is for more people to be duped.

Quote:
By Shotgun Ninja: That's insulting the media sites, and frankly, they don't deserve it. It's the people who create these rumors who do.


Once everyone learns how to recognize this guy and his various scams it will be easy to shut his attempts down.

Need more info? Head over to www.mmorpg.com or search google and start doing your own research.

Quote:
By Shotgun Ninja: Why? Where's your research?



I felt the need to address this ridiculous claim that the Chaos Game Engine is a fraud. The Chaos Game engine was purchased from Loud Ant Software over 6 months ago along with assets from a mmog game called Thrones of Chaos. The game Thrones of Chaos has been dismantled and all the assets have been sold to third parties. The game Thrones of Chaos had a long history of problems, none of which we were any apart of. The engine and tools, which was the main reason we purchased the assets, is the product we have salvaged and continue to develop.

Quote:
By Shotgun Ninja: Apart of? It's 'part', not 'apart'. And what exactly have you developed?


There is a PDF on our site which outlines the general features. There is also an engine demonstration which prospective companies look at before they purchase the technology. We are not selling a low end hobbyist solution here and companies do their due diligence when purchasing technology of this cost.

Quote:
By Shotgun Ninja: Of course there's an engine demonstration. But if you want the support of us 'low end hobbyists', which all 'big developers' were once upon a time, then you should stop thinking of us as some sort of a lesser breed of programmer, and appreciate our potential. All that these 'companies' consist of is a group of low-end hobbyists with a little money to their names. As the professional programmer's mantra goes, 'Never trust a man with a tie.'


I invite anyone to contact me with any questions they may have about the engine or any questions in general. I have explained all this to this tunabun person before and even offered to talk to him on the phone, but he rather continues to spread his nonsense.

Thank you,
Troy Powell
Chaos Software
troy@chaosgameengine.com
www.chaosgameengine.com
Phone: 800-384-5913
Fax: 866-855-9806



I'm not gonna trust a guy with the words "Warning Level: 10%" next to his name. And frankly, Troy, from an outsider's standpoint (I haven't even seen the site yet), you do sound like a scam artist, clouding our perceptions with a whole lot of nothing about the decency and legality of your engine.

And I have no thing against reposessed engines. I am making a game using the Torque Engine, which (apparently) went through the same thing (Developer goes bust, sells game engine to GarageGames, etc...), but with one exception: GarageGames had a wonderful presentation and an honest penchant to improve the engine (even if they have to admit they're wrong), whereas you are looking more and more like you're just trying to cover your ass, and letting your pride get in the way of real improvement.

And yes, tunabun's response to this was, I have to admit, a little unmerited and demonizing, but he may be right. I will give him the benefit of the doubt simply because he was the one to post this, not you.

And riddle me this: When was the last time you actually looked at the engine's source code? If it was more than a year ago, then you should be ashamed of yourself. (If otherwise, then I apologise.) Because even if Lua was the the best game programming language then, it isn't now. And besides, who are you to make that claim? That's to be decided by a committee, not by one man alone. So many of your claims would be outdated, giving you a neccessity to update your site and fix the aforementioned errors.

#19 Jerky   Members   -  Reputation: 277

Posted 07 June 2007 - 02:37 PM

Quote:
By Shotgun Ninja:
I'm not gonna trust a guy with the words "Warning Level: 10%" next to his name. And frankly, Troy, from an outsider's standpoint (I haven't even seen the site yet), you do sound like a scam artist, clouding our perceptions with a whole lot of nothing about the decency and legality of your engine.

I am still not following any of the logic in this thread, especially due to the lack thereof. This involving Colton Burgess should not equal automatic scam. I am sure Troy himself knew who he was dealing with when he bought that from Colton. Now, there are reputable members here that are defending Troy, and (almost) nothing but newbies flaming him. What should that tell you? Second of all, how can you make that judgement not having seen the website? Thats quite a stretch, but I guess it fits in with the rest of the logic in this thread.
Quote:
By Shotgun Ninja:
And yes, tunabun's response to this was, I have to admit, a little unmerited and demonizing, but he may be right. I will give him the benefit of the doubt simply because he was the one to post this, not you.

Umm, what? You will give a guy the benefit of the doubt who joined GD.net just to flame? Granted, Troy joined just to defend himself, but lets read the thread now. There is another post that somehow concludes that since he is here, that somehow means the price should be meant for us "no-budget" indies. Another stretch. Let me explain. As someone who runs a website, I know how good it can be to look at the stats. When I see a lot of hits to my site coming from another site, I go investigate. When I see falacies about what I am working on, I try to clear them up. I have done that exact thing before. So, again, Troy is well within his rights here. No bad rep needed.
Quote:
By Shotgun Ninja:
And riddle me this: When was the last time you actually looked at the engine's source code? If it was more than a year ago, then you should be ashamed of yourself. (If otherwise, then I apologise.) Because even if Lua was the the best game programming language then, it isn't now. And besides, who are you to make that claim? That's to be decided by a committee, not by one man alone. So many of your claims would be outdated, giving you a neccessity to update your site and fix the aforementioned errors.

Now who here has done the research? After gleaning tidbits from the various posts, it is true that this came from a sketchy guy. Colton has a bad reputation. Now, it is known that he had actual technology to work with. The "anonymous" post-mortem written about Mourning indicates that they had an actual development staff, and therefore, had actual technology to work with. Now, as someone who has followed many failed games, including one which started me on my quest, I know a few things about them. Mourning was a failure because of the leadership, decisions, etc, NOT the tech. So, it is entirely possible that the tech that this uses, which comes from Thrones of Chaos (according to the Shacknews article), is completely legit. They have gotten real devs to work on this, and now Troy decided to buy it from Colton, after his failed MMO #2. Sound likely? Yes, absolutely.

BushHatesBlacks was actually pulling some useful information using the information trail found on the internet. This is what we all should be doing. Now, I don't know why he got banned, or really care, I am just looking at facts.

Now, as to Troy and the "mistakes" in his documentation, so what? He explained them perfectly well. You can't fault him for trying. Yes, it is going to make some people stop and think, but Troy said it himself. People research things they are going to put their money into. Now, from what I have seen, I see no reason to continue flaming this engine. Everything commercial uses fancy words. How is what they did any different? And who here has actually seen the engine? No one that I can see other than Corman. Now, since I know Corman personally, and I know that his word is worth its weight in Gold. That says something to its credit.

So, where are we? We have credibility for the tech: 3, flamers: 0. Seems to me that anyone who knows how to research and critically think can come to their own conclusion. Do I know Troy? No. Had I ever heard anything about this before today? No. But what I did do was read the thread and look for true evidence. Could it still be a scam? Possibly, but very unlikely.

Benjamin Heath and others are obviously trying to find out the truth, while the flamers are missing it.

Well, I felt the need to comment. I don't like seeing someone get dumped on for undeserved reasons, regardless of who they are.
Erik Briggs (Jerky)Project Manager - Project Wishhttp://www.projectwish.comMy Blog

#20 Corman   Members   -  Reputation: 556

Posted 07 June 2007 - 02:42 PM

I may not know fully who these one day only drive by posters may be and why some have been banned (outside of an obviously explictly selected user name) but there is really some air here that still needs cleaning and clearing up. Hopefully with my longer running history here on GDNet people will possibly listen to me a bit better than others in a more neutral way versus the somewhat heated bias and bitter views that have been presented thus far.

From what I am seeing is alot of emotional baggage being dragged back from the rough ride when this was the Abyssal Engine being developed by Quad Software LTD for use in Mourning that was being created by Limitless Horizons Entertainment LLC. Most of the negatives that are flying around should really be understood that it was the game itself and not the technology that had such a tainted background. The game itself has been renamed and refocused time and time again from "Mourning" to "Realms of Torment" to "Realms of Krel" to "Thrones of Chaos" (this one being more than likely where the current engine and company name derived from) not to mention how many companies have bought and transfered this all around like a mistreaded step child (more than likely for the same reasons presented here because of all the massive back log of crap slinging for the wrong reasons).

Even if just by association by technology alone there is obviously alot of conspiracy theories abound that have no real first hand experience and nothing more than speculation and personal distrust to spurt at possibly a very legit and valid company trying to give life back into a very useful and relatively resonably priced product. When I tested out the October 31, 2003 build of the Abyssal Engine using demo assets from Realms of Torment it did indeed provide much of what is even promissed today with the exception of the full seamless transtions was still under development at that time in 2004. Then for its time it was very much competitive for what was available back then. If this was its state then there is no telling the real improvements since then truly fleshing out the published features list available now.

The proof in the pudding already is with Quad Software itself today. Adrian Licuriceanu who was the lead engine programmer of the Abyssal Engine (now the Chaos Game Engine) obviously has worth in his work to continue on with Grome (a very useful tool indeed and very much an extension of earlier work done with the Abyssal/Chaos terrain tools) as well as doing work for NCSoft/ArenaNet on Guild Wars Factions. As with any middleware there is no direct silver bullet for all needs, wants, or problems. This technology was created and targeted for a specific reason and is for commercial use and is suited for that market. The reasons why there are so many different middlewares out there for the same purposes is because everones needs and wants are different. If what you see in this engine fits your projects specs and you have a serious budget then this would be a very valid solution to pick because heavens knows you would be strapped to create anything close to what it is really offering on your own within its price range.

I may not fully agree to how people on both sides are conducting themselves on all of this but everyone really does need to take a step back and seprate out all of the dirty details to find what really is solid here. As with any product outhere don't take anything on blind faith, test are retest, and buyer always beware because you get what you pay for. But sometimes even with what others view as downsides may not really matter much in ones own project and this may be the best value for your needs. Keep in mind that I am only taking a stance on the technology itself and not directly on the people or companies associated with it and or the personal or business practices that may or not be taking place here, elsewhere, or in the past.

@Jerky:
I see that you were posting at the same time I did so I am sorry if I did not directly touch upon anything you may have brought up but thanks for joining in.

[Edited by - Corman on June 7, 2007 9:42:10 PM]




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