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Is direct3d remedial mode a waste of API??


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#1 meganova75   Members   -  Reputation: 134

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Posted 29 October 1999 - 11:29 AM

Would I be wasting my time learning the
d3drm api or should I just stick with
hardcore 3d graphics and direct3d immediate
mode?

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#2 Aldacron   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 3280

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Posted 24 October 1999 - 05:23 PM

They say RM is dead, but the Microsoft stance is it's just no longer supported. A revival by some of the original D3D members has begun under a different name independent of Microsoft. I had the URL somewhere. When I find it I'll post it.

I think learning RM is not a bad thing, and will help ease the transition into IM. Write a few small apps to get the hang of it the dig into IM to see what's under the hood.


#3 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 25 October 1999 - 11:12 AM

Well it depend on what you want to do. As Aldacron syggested, RM is a good choice to make small 3d applications.

If you love math, jumping to IM might be a fun, too.

Simply be carefull to the a fake statement such as RM is dead. If RM were dead, Microsoft had not made RM for VB in DirectX Version 7. Persons who do not want people make simple 3d applications easily, will say "RM is dead." They just want to disturb competitive market in 3d industry by limiting a choice of ways of making a software. This is a typical "economic abuse."


#4 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696

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Posted 25 October 1999 - 11:39 AM

People who think RM is dead are trying to "disturb competitive market in 3d industry by limiting a choice of ways of making a software"? Give me a break. They might be wrong, but I doubt that they have some sort of vendetta against RM.

--TheGoop


#5 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 25 October 1999 - 01:40 PM

>I doubt that they have some sort of vendetta against RM.

Well, you may be right. But even if a behavior is not intentional, it can be economic abuse.

Definition of economic abuse:

"Any action which limits other persons' ability to learn, have access to, or manage the economic resources in their life"

("intention" does not matter in the definition)

We should be responsible for any actions even if they are not intentional. This is how human rights are respected.

I do not want to discuss on this kind of things. But I am really angry about irrerspossible statements.


#6 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696

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Posted 25 October 1999 - 03:30 PM

quote:

Definition of economic abuse:

"Any action which limits other persons' ability to learn, have access to, or manage the economic resources in their life"


How does saying something incorrect limit someones ability to learn? They can still learn whatever they wish. Nobody is stopping them. They might choose not to learn something based off a statement, but thats their decision, and nobody elses. Anyone with a brain should realize that something said on this board -- or anywhere, for that matter -- may be incorrect. It's the old rule of "Buyer beware" (or in this case, "poster beware").

I'm not looking to start a war here, but you shouldn't have an attitude that saying something incorrect is an abuse of speech or that it's completely irresponsible. I doub't anyone here would post something they know to be incorrect.

--TheGoop


#7 Aldacron   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 3280

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Posted 25 October 1999 - 04:51 PM

Well, the fact remains RM is not dead, no matter what people say. As I said above, Microsft has not declared it a dead API. And as Han said it is included in DX 7 for VB and C/C++. I think the term 'Dead' comes from the fact that it's no longer under development. There was a heated debate on this same topic recently on the DirectXDev mailing list.

And as far as I'm concerned it eases the pain of using D3D. The new D3DX utility library shipped with DX7 is even easier, and theoreticcally, any apps written with D3DX will be bug free (yeah right). I think the creation of D3DX also contibuted to the 'death of RM' rumor.

My point? There's no conspiracy to overthrow the use of RM. Microsoft had a rather valid reason (manpower vs. timeline) to halt development of RM and the rumors started flying. Now, when Farhenheit becomes part of D3D, that might put RM in the grave. Until that day, it's still alive and kickin'.


#8 jamesmcc   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 25 October 1999 - 05:41 PM

Man those conspiracy theories are alive again ... that really frustrates me, better go lie down.
I agree that RM is in limbo ... but it has the fundementals before you play with the big boys in IM

#9 mhkrause   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 25 October 1999 - 06:33 PM

The official line is Direct3D Retained Mode is in maintenance mode. There will be no further updates to the API, there have not been any since DirectX 6 (a year ago.) It will not take advantage of any of the new Direct3D 7.0 features, such as HW TnL, and the underlying mechanics (immediate mode) are still the ugly pre-DX7 versions (COM interfaces for lights and materials, etc.) The only updates to Retained Mode will be bug fixes.

#10 Niels   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 25 October 1999 - 11:25 PM

This is a side-note completely unrelated to the topic, but anyway:

It's funny how some people ignore the obvious supressions of free speech, and yet is capable of detecting a conspiracy in every other sentence. (I've seen this twice on this board over the past 10 days).

You can't say that an API stinks, or is dead (when it does, or is) because that's, what was the word again, "economic abuse"??

You can't get a job in the IT business, so the "lack of professional IT people" is a myth made up by evil cooperations??

Jeez!

"Fools follow rulez when the set commands ya!" - Feel free to flame, I'll feel free to ignore it, that's what it's all about !

/Niels


#11 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 26 October 1999 - 02:57 AM

There might be misunderstanding about "freedom".

If you damage or limit other persons' freedom, your freedom will be limited. There is no freedom to limit other persons' freedom. This is how our society works and the reason why freedom is not just selfish. For example,if we limit other person's physical ability by punching her/him, we will go to jail. Freedom of speach is also limited in the same way: for eaxmple, when our sexual statements causes emotional, or psychological injury, it is called "sexual abuse," and we are respensible for it.

By the way, the problem is "vague" expression of "RM is dead" in stead of clear statement of con and pro of RM. Using vague statements results in controlling other people. This is the attitude to limit other persons' freedom, and the reason why it is economic abuse.

P.S. Microsot does have the right to change its products. But, when the third party who does not own RM makes the statement, there will be a clear problem.


#12 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696

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Posted 26 October 1999 - 07:27 AM

Thanks Neils, glad I'm not the only one noticing this.

Han: you still haven't proven your point. How is it infringing on a person's rights when you say something vague or incorrect. I'd agree if someone said something wrong and they were the ONLY source of information, as that would mean that you are limiting there ability to learn. But as it is, the information being discussed can be learned from many sources.

A vague statement is not "economic abuse" and there aren't any conspiracys on this board to sway peoples opinion. There is a big difference between saying something incorrect and limiting someones ability to learn. Even if someone said something incorrect intentionaly I still wouldn't call it economic abuse because there are many sources of information, and there are many people who will jump in and dispute the incorrect statement anyway.

--TheGoop

[This message has been edited by TheGoop (edited October 26, 1999).]


#13 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 26 October 1999 - 09:06 AM

Reason of economic abuse? It seems you have seen only part of the definition.

(Definition of economic abuse) Any action which limits a person's ability to earn, have access to, or manage the economic resources in her/his life.

If you say something wrong information on a person's possible choices, then the person's perception is misled. Through this mislead perception, her/his ability to mange her/his own time/money becomes limited. What she/he think her/his possoble choices becomes different from actual possibe choices. For example, even if a person's need matches RM, the statement "RM is dead" can make her/him not to use it.

Although this behavior may not be always illegal, it represents low morality and disrepect to other persons' freedom.

#14 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 26 October 1999 - 09:19 AM

I forgot to answer to another question:

Existence of other methods to get correct information does not matter.

If there were not mislleading information, she/he could save time to get correct information.
Again in this way, ability to mange her/his own time (economic resources) got limited (economic abuse).


#15 Niels   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 26 October 1999 - 01:55 PM

Ah well, since we're into the nitty gritty:

The fact that you punish people for saying something, anything, is basically a problem, in that it prevents free speech (speech IS with an 'e', in english ) rather than advocate it.

I don't care if people are muslims, christians, black, yellow, green, white or blue. If they are nazis or freedom fighters - as long as all they do is speak, I believe my ability to filter what is said will "protect" me... No law can ever do that.

Which brings me back to my point: The problem is not what's beeing said, the problem is peoples inability to interpret and evaluate. Yes, people, in general, are deaf dumb and blind, and yes, they fall prey to false rumors and lies. But no law can protect a fool from beeing run over by a train he didn't care to look for.

Han: I've noticed that you know your definitions. Ever considered the possibility that they are wrong? A definition, by definition, is not a law !

/Niels


#16 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696

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Posted 26 October 1999 - 03:58 PM

Well said

#17 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 28 October 1999 - 06:58 AM

The definition is quite neat. If a person does not accept the definition, it simply means the person does not respect other person's freedom. The definition has been already accepted in various US police and court.

Although I admit the definition may not be a law, abusive behavior always brings justification and shift of responsibility:

>The problem is not what's beeing said, the problem is peoples inability to interpret and evaluate.

If someone stole money and if some people say the problem is lack of security, does it mean steal is not a problem? Shift of responsibility to others is very typical.


#18 Dan Smith   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 28 October 1999 - 09:15 AM

D3D RM Dead? No.
D3D RM Not updated anymore? Yes.
Should you use D3DRM? No.

If your just testing something out, you may want to use D3DRM, but I dont reccomend it. What would it really show you? It wouldnt be the same in IM. The speed would be different, and the implementation would be different.

I dont know the real reason D3DRM was stopped being updated, but I'm guessing because it was so slow. Nothing commerical could use something as slow as it and get away with it, not even with the new 700mhz processors. It'll show, and you'll wish you would of took the extra few hours to use IM instead.


If you want to do fast 3D development, use D3DX. I've found it to be quite good, and its quite fast, as fast as D3DIM to my knowledge. And it doesnt limit what you do. Its part of the DirectX 7 SDK, by the way.

Many people think D3DRM is all that, but its been shown that it is much slower then the other API's.

Oh well, its the actual programmers choice in the end. I'd reccomend D3DIM or D3DX. Just make sure your sure your really sure the API you choose is a good choice before you deploy it into a large project that would add alot of time to its development to change it to a fast 3D API.


#19 Niels   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 29 October 1999 - 03:36 AM

Reg. the US gov. accepting the definition: That really makes zero difference to me - Isn't that the same institution that is defending a completely brain dead law to prevent widespread use of cryptograhy (to name an example).

Anyway, there is a huge difference between stealing and saying something. Namely, that the lies people spread won't affect me unless I choose to listen to them (Or someone else does, which brings me back to the point about not believing everything people tell you). However, if someone steal my wallet, that WILL affect me no matter if I try to ignore it or not.

Bottom line is, if you want absolute freedom of speech, you have to accept that people can say whatever they feel like, regardless of the truth value of it. As soon as you start defining "truth" you're on a sidetrack that leads one way: to oppression (And then you can really start talking conspiracy ).

Interresting discussion BTW, odd forum though ...

/Niels


#20 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696

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Posted 29 October 1999 - 11:29 AM

Dan: D3DX is just a helper lib for D3DIM which handles some commond things like initialization and texture loading. Thats it. D3DX is designed to help you with some of the tougher parts of IM, it's not meant to replace it though. But everything else you said was completely correct IMHO though

--TheGoop





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