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A Nobody with a good idea - Why cant we have a crack at game design too?


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#61 Tom Sloper   Moderators   -  Reputation: 10179

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Posted 28 September 2008 - 07:12 AM

Noz wrote:
>I am seriously considering trying to make a mod about this idea, but that still requires much searching and enquiry to ascertain its practicality and feasibility.

Why is the word "but" in that sentence? Is this your way of saying "but it's too hard"? Another interpretation of "but it's too hard" is "but I'm too lazy." You should just do that feasibility study if you're so passionate about your game, and if it's not feasible scale it down.

>Enough of the story, onto the gameplay.
>The gameplay is more action oriented than Tomb Raider...
>One idea I had was for a British museum basement level. Basically you have a 30 minute time limit ...

And why are you telling us all this? Just because some have said "all you've got is story, what's the game?" If you have a game in your head, you should put it on paper. We don't need those details to answer your question.

>I don’t want to tell you everything! I am sure I can trust you guys, but, ehhmm, who knows who else reads these forums?!

There are some who say "never tell your game ideas," and others who say "just tell'em already." Commit your concept to paper, copyright it, and either publish the design or don't, depending. And of course, then you should design more games too. Nobody makes his fortune on one game idea. It's about a career, not one flash of brilliance.
-- Tom Sloper
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com

Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find, but note that I do not give private advice.

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#62 r691175002   Members   -  Reputation: 138

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Posted 28 September 2008 - 04:28 PM

Way too long of a thread, not going to read it all.

Put simply, there are thousands of people like you who all think they have got the greatest idea since sliced bread.

So to begin with, you just blend in with the noise. Why would anyone choose your idea as opposed to the thousands of other people who would probably even be willing to pay to have someone make their own idea.

Finally, game design isn't really about the idea or story. Game design is about realizing how to make things fun. You can talk all you want about your incredible plot and setting but plot doesn't make a game. The truth is most "great" ideas are actually so full of holes they wouldn't even be useful as a sieve. Just take a look at any games "suggestion" thread.
Well over 99% of the ideas are novelties that sound somewhat cool but wouldn't be able to stand up to a light breeze.

Frankly, if you cannot skim through the average games suggestion thread and realize why game studios don't pick people off the street to design games, you are in no position to design one yourself.



Game studios are not going to throw millions of dollars away on some kids crappy dream game idea.

#63 Nozyspy   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 30 September 2008 - 12:58 PM

Quote:
Original post by Kaze
I really think you should just start writing novels instead of trying to make games. You clearly have a lot more ideas for story than gameplay and I doubt a game would make a better medium without turning gameplay into boring grind with story doled out one bit at a time as a reward.


The story is intricately wound in with the gameplay. ;) The gameplay ideas I gave you were just a few examples of possibilities.

Quote:
Original post by Tom Sloper
Noz wrote:
>I am seriously considering trying to make a mod about this idea, but that still requires much searching and enquiry to ascertain its practicality and feasibility.

Why is the word "but" in that sentence? Is this your way of saying "but it's too hard"? Another interpretation of "but it's too hard" is "but I'm too lazy." You should just do that feasibility study if you're so passionate about your game, and if it's not feasible scale it down.


You obviously aren’t familiar with the difficulties of creating a decent singleplayer mod in our community.

Quote:
Original post by Tom Sloper
And why are you telling us all this? Just because some have said "all you've got is story, what's the game?" If you have a game in your head, you should put it on paper. We don't need those details to answer your question.


I got the impression people wanted a bit more detail, and really that I was just a hair brained madman who has no idea what gameplay is! The game in my head is on paper, and by the time I have finished will at least have filled the blank book I bought for the purpose.

Quote:
Original post by r691175002
Way too long of a thread, not going to read it all.

Put simply, there are thousands of people like you who all think they have got the greatest idea since sliced bread.


You cannot properly understand my thoughts unless you make the effort to read as much of the thread as possible. I never said my idea was the ‘greatest since sliced bread’, just that it was good (I think) and that it resides in a part of the gaming market that seems rather underdeveloped.

Quote:
Original post by r691175002
So to begin with, you just blend in with the noise. Why would anyone choose your idea as opposed to the thousands of other people who would probably even be willing to pay to have someone make their own idea.


Believe me, if I had that much money I would have already completely funded and made he game by now. :P

Quote:
Original post by r691175002
Finally, game design isn't really about the idea or story. Game design is about realizing how to make things fun. You can talk all you want about your incredible plot and setting but plot doesn't make a game. The truth is most "great" ideas are actually so full of holes they wouldn't even be useful as a sieve. Just take a look at any games "suggestion" thread.


Personally I disagree with that, I believe story is an extremely important aspect of the gameplay as a whole. The gameplay could be absolutely rubbish, but if it has a good story people will still play it, Tomb Raider: Angel of Darkness is an example I believe.

Many older games also have excellent stories, which is part of the reason why a lot have become legendary. It appears that these newfangled ‘next-gen’ titles prefer to concentrate more on ‘pretty colours and flashing lights’ than a good old ripping yarn. As someone who appreciates a bit of effort being put into a games story line, I find this attitude most disappointing.

Take the entire Tomb Raider series for example. The gameplay is nothing new, its mostly the same across the games, with tweaks and upgrades along the way, but in general the same formula. It’s the story that makes them special to a lot of people.

You know what all the buzz on the forums for TR: Underworld is about at the moment? Story. Only a few posts actually seem to have talked about gameplay (like the new ‘sonar ping’ device). It is the story that everyone wants to know, the theories and spoilers are flying around all over the place.

More games that create that kind of a buzz, and less games that are mindless shoot-em-ups would be a good thing.

Quote:
Original post by r691175002Game studios are not going to throw millions of dollars away on some kids crappy dream game idea.


Yeah, games studios throw millions of dollars away on some executives crappy dream game idea instead.

Look, I know I came here in a bit of a ranting mood, but I believe I explained my feelings and state of mind clearly enough. Although there have indeed been some very helpful and informative posts by helpful and informative people, I was rather hoping that people like you who had most likely been in my position and felt the same way at one time would at least be a little more encouraging.

Most people however have done little to dispel my impression that the games industry is very elitist, and once you get into the ‘club’ you rise above the crowd of ordinary gamers from whence you came. Believe it or not, just because you haven’t worked for years at a games studio or haven’t made an uber-mod doesn’t mean that some ordinary folk do actually have the talent to be a game director. I know personally many people who are better at what they do than the people who made the actual game.


#64 Captain P   Members   -  Reputation: 1092

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Posted 30 September 2008 - 02:28 PM

Quote:
Original post by Nozyspy
Quote:
Original post by r691175002
Game studios are not going to throw millions of dollars away on some kids crappy dream game idea.


Yeah, games studios throw millions of dollars away on some executives crappy dream game idea instead.

No, they pour in big money in something that looks like it'll make them more money in return.

But really, seeing the games industry as only that is misleading. There are many different companies and relationships and situations out there. Some foster an atmosphere of creativity. Others work only by the mercy of their producers/financiers. Either way, getting a team to work on your idea isn't just a matter of getting 'in the industry'. The industry has many faces and scarcely few are 'total freedom to implement your own ideas'. Even those that are still need to deal with reality: if the game doesn't make money, it may mean the end of that company. Why would you deserve such a sacrifice? That's a huge risk right there.

If anything, it's a privilege to get your ideas worked out.

Quote:
Most people however have done little to dispel my impression that the games industry is very elitist, and once you get into the ‘club’ you rise above the crowd of ordinary gamers from whence you came. Believe it or not, just because you haven’t worked for years at a games studio or haven’t made an uber-mod doesn’t mean that some ordinary folk do actually have the talent to be a game director. I know personally many people who are better at what they do than the people who made the actual game.

Smart people are dumb. And no, game-developers are no more elitist than modders are. In fact, I've seen more elitism among the latter (regardless of skill level).

But hey, if you know so many excellent people outside the industry, why don't you set up a team to get things done? Surely they will be willing to work for you because they're not in the industry...


In other words, don't you see that this has very little to do with 'the industry' and very much with practical, real-life constraints? Aren't you the one with the elitist attitude here? The guys who run game-dev companies put a lot of hard work in them. And so should you, if you really want to push this. Yes, it's a lot of hard work. If it's too much, then you, being the designer, must decide what to cut out, or live with the fact that your idea will never see daylight. You choose. Be pragmatic.
Create-ivity - a game development blog Mouseover for more information.

#65 Telastyn   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3730

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Posted 30 September 2008 - 03:48 PM

Quote:

...doesn’t mean that some ordinary folk do actually have the talent to be a game director.


Talent without experience is not enough to be a game director. Game companies can't wait for you to learn the things experience teaches you (usually via failure) when you're the guy piloting the ship.

#66 Kylotan   Moderators   -  Reputation: 3338

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Posted 01 October 2008 - 12:13 AM

Quote:
Original post by Nozyspy
Quote:
Original post by Tom Sloper
Noz wrote:
>I am seriously considering trying to make a mod about this idea, but that still requires much searching and enquiry to ascertain its practicality and feasibility.

Why is the word "but" in that sentence? Is this your way of saying "but it's too hard"? Another interpretation of "but it's too hard" is "but I'm too lazy." You should just do that feasibility study if you're so passionate about your game, and if it's not feasible scale it down.


You obviously aren’t familiar with the difficulties of creating a decent singleplayer mod in our community.

He isn't talking about making a mod. He's talking about doing the feasibility and practicality study.

Quote:
Personally I disagree with that, I believe story is an extremely important aspect of the gameplay as a whole. The gameplay could be absolutely rubbish, but if it has a good story people will still play it, Tomb Raider: Angel of Darkness is an example I believe.

You mean the game that was a relative commercial failure, leading to Eidos shifting Tomb Raider development to a different studio?

Quote:
You know what all the buzz on the forums for TR: Underworld is about at the moment? Story. Only a few posts actually seem to have talked about gameplay (like the new ‘sonar ping’ device). It is the story that everyone wants to know, the theories and spoilers are flying around all over the place.

Guess what... if you go to the FIFA '09 forums, you'll find them all talking about gameplay, and not about story! Funny, that. You're looking at a niche and expecting to generalise from that, but it doesn't work that way.

Quote:
I was rather hoping that people like you who had most likely been in my position and felt the same way at one time would at least be a little more encouraging.

Unfortunately there is nothing to encourage. Put in the work, make the game yourself. Or work through the industry and hope you get a shot. That's all we can offer you.

Quote:
Most people however have done little to dispel my impression that the games industry is very elitist, and once you get into the ‘club’ you rise above the crowd of ordinary gamers from whence you came.

That's the way any industry works, whether artistic or not. Why can't Average Joe design his own cellphone? Make his own skyscraper? Fly a fighter plane? Have his own operating system? The answer in all cases is that you can go one of three routes: 1 - do it all yourself, 2 - pay others to do it, 3 - work your way up to be in charge of a team that does it. This isn't about games. This is about life.

Quote:
Believe it or not, just because you haven’t worked for years at a games studio or haven’t made an uber-mod doesn’t mean that some ordinary folk do actually have the talent to be a game director. I know personally many people who are better at what they do than the people who made the actual game.

In your opinion. It's very easy to pick out a piece of work done by someone working on a mod team and compare it to something in a game, and say "hey, this is better than the 'real' one." Yet that misses so many important points, such as:
- the professional was working to a deadline, probably meaning that they had less time to dedicate to any individual item than the modder did. They have also had to generate all sorts of boring assets in that timespan which the modder can take for granted.
- the modder has a fixed target, in that the game is released and the specs are known. The professional often has to spend time reworking assets as the engine changes during development.
- the modder often has better tools, because the bespoke tools that they get to use are often what the professional only had at the end of the project, having had to contend with bugs and defects in those tools beforehand.
- the modder is targetting a higher minimum PC specification than the professional. Not only is their development PC likely to be faster (since it is months or years after the pro worked on the game), but they are not constrained to certain budgets (such as texture memory) or by other constraints (eg. execution speed) by a marketing department keen to hit as low a spec as possible.

In other words, it is rarely a fair comparison. But yes, some artists, coders, designers are slightly better than some of their commercial counterparts. So? Let them apply for the jobs, or work on indie games, and they'll do fine.

#67 Kaze   Members   -  Reputation: 948

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 09:50 AM

Quote:
Original post by Nozyspy
Quote:
Original post by Kaze
I really think you should just start writing novels instead of trying to make games. You clearly have a lot more ideas for story than gameplay and I doubt a game would make a better medium without turning gameplay into boring grind with story doled out one bit at a time as a reward.


The story is intricately wound in with the gameplay. ;) The gameplay ideas I gave you were just a few examples of possibilities.

I'm not sure how to put this politely buy I disagree. It seems like you just pasted your story onto a generic 3rd person adventure game. All the gameplay you listed has been done before in games with varying stories.


Quote:
[i]Original post by Nozyspy[/i
Most people however have done little to dispel my impression that the games industry is very elitist, and once you get into the ‘club’ you rise above the crowd of ordinary gamers from whence you came. Believe it or not, just because you haven’t worked for years at a games studio or haven’t made an uber-mod doesn’t mean that some ordinary folk do actually have the talent to be a game director. I know personally many people who are better at what they do than the people who made the actual game.


But you still don't seem to understand that your not the only one who's played a ton of games and believes they have a amazing game idea that would make millions if only someone would make it. Its not elitism that with a large number of choices the industry chooses the people who are willing to put in the effort to learns a skill and gain experience in the industry.

Finally its easy to think up a game idea but in real life you have to deal with time and cost constrains, technical limitations and marketing.

#68 qblocks_models   Members   -  Reputation: 154

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Posted 03 October 2008 - 05:10 AM

Maybe reading this article which has just been published on gamasutra will enlighten why a nobody with no experiance and just ideas won't get hired.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20373

#69 MSW   Members   -  Reputation: 151

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 06:35 AM

Quote:
Original post by Nozyspy
Most people however have done little to dispel my impression that the games industry is very elitist, and once you get into the ‘club’ you rise above the crowd of ordinary gamers from whence you came. Believe it or not, just because you haven’t worked for years at a games studio or haven’t made an uber-mod doesn’t mean that some ordinary folk do actually have the talent to be a game director. I know personally many people who are better at what they do than the people who made the actual game.


Open your eyes and really listen.

Asking for the industry to risk millions of dollars and the livelyhoods of development teams and thier families on an unknown whom hasn't proven his worth through the well established inroads into the industry. That is like asking airline passangers to ride a plane flown by someone without a pilots license.

I'm sorry, moutains do not come equiped with elevators, if you want to reach the peak you are going to have to learn to climb. If you had spent all the energy you used to debate in this thread on reaching your goals, you would be that much closer to achieveing them.






#70 Spoonbender   Members   -  Reputation: 1254

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 06:49 AM

Quote:
Most people however have done little to dispel my impression that the games industry is very elitist, and once you get into the ‘club’ you rise above the crowd of ordinary gamers from whence you came. Believe it or not, just because you haven’t worked for years at a games studio or haven’t made an uber-mod doesn’t mean that some ordinary folk do actually have the talent to be a game director. I know personally many people who are better at what they do than the people who made the actual game.

What's elitist about wanting to hire those who have relevant experience? Is it elitist that no one will let you run a major bank? Direct the next big Hollywood movie?

It's no different than any other industry. Intel isn't going to listen to you if you say you have a good idea for a new CPU. Ford isn't going to listen to you if you have an idea for better cars. Spielberg isn't going to listen to you if you tell him you've got an idea for a movie. That's not elitism, it's simply protecting their investment. They've got a lot of money at stake, and face it, it's risky to gamble it all on an unknown. If you want to become more than an unknown, then it's up to you. Don't blame anyone else for not falling at your feet at the mere mention that you have an idea. If no one are sufficiently impressed to hire you, you haven't sold your idea well enough. Or, possibly, the idea isn't good enough to be worth the trouble.

But let's turn your question upside down. Why should a studio head listen to you? Why should they give you 5 minutes of your time? How do they know that your ideas are so far ahead of everyone else's? There are over 6 billion people on this planet. All of them have ideas. Do you expect every single one of them to be given 5 minutes every time they get a new idea? Of course not.

You assume that your ideas are a hot commodity. They might be, but it is doubtful, because there are an awful lot of ideas in this world. But even if they are, so what? Don't expect people to come looking for them. you are going to have to convince people that your ideas are 1) better than theirs, and 2) so *vastly* better that it justifies hiring you, paying your wages, just for the sake of this idea. What else can you do? What else do you have to bring to the table?

#71 Nozyspy   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 10:32 AM

Quote:
Original post by Spoonbender
What's elitist about wanting to hire those who have relevant experience? Is it elitist that no one will let you run a major bank? Direct the next big Hollywood movie?

It's no different than any other industry. Intel isn't going to listen to you if you say you have a good idea for a new CPU. Ford isn't going to listen to you if you have an idea for better cars. Spielberg isn't going to listen to you if you tell him you've got an idea for a movie. That's not elitism, it's simply protecting their investment. They've got a lot of money at stake, and face it, it's risky to gamble it all on an unknown. If you want to become more than an unknown, then it's up to you. Don't blame anyone else for not falling at your feet at the mere mention that you have an idea. If no one are sufficiently impressed to hire you, you haven't sold your idea well enough. Or, possibly, the idea isn't good enough to be worth the trouble.


Nono, that’s not what I mean by elitism, what I mean is the kind of thing I see a lot when modders get a bit too good at what they do, and they view the work or ideas of less experienced people as ‘worthless’ without paying much attention to what those people are actually doing.

What I feel is that the industry simply ignores people like that and rather hires people who share their philosophy of ‘money money money’ rather than ‘lets make a game people will really enjoy and keep playing for the next 10 years!’

Of course if you train and have proven yourself at something you have a better chance at getting the job, I have no problem with that. I just wish the gods of the games studios would come down from their clouds once in a while just to see what other people are doing.

Afterall, how often do you actually see a developer posting a personal message on the forums for their own game?! The only person I know of personally who know does this is John Smedley of SOE, and I respect him for doing that. He actually answered my email personally, something I doubt most execs do!

Anyway, this thread has reached its limit of usefulness for me, I appreciate the replies guys, especially the ones that were helpful. However I cant help but feel somewhat worried about the future of game design, afterall in our modding community ideas, whoever comes up with them, are treated with a certain amount of respect, far from being ‘worthless’.

Maybe I will stick to writing a book instead. . Or if I feel lazy and suddenly become rich, get a ghost writer to do it for me…

But anyway, I’m sure you have heard quite enough of me, obviously this is world where I have not done enough to be welcome, therefore I thank you all for your time, and say goodbye!


Noz


#72 QuantifyFun   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 03:46 AM

Meh. This deserves to be said. People like you are the most annoying kind.

There is absolutely no reason why anybody on earth should take you seriously or even bother reading your post.

-IF- you really were a passionate aspiring game designer, you'd be at DigiPen, or making a mod, or learning to program. Read all of those things as -DOING SOMETHING- other than sitting there working on your pretend game design document which is worth less than a splash in the toilet bowl.

Everybody has ideas. Everybody. The clerk at GameStop has an idea for the best game ever. The cashier at Best Buy has an idea for the best game ever. My toddler has an idea for the best game ever. None of this makes any of these people a game designer, and none of them have the best idea ever, and none of them are going to get 2 minutes with a studio to pitch their idea.

Game design is not about ideas. It's about implementation. Yes, a game designer should have great ideas, but game design as a -PROFESSION- is the ability to turn ideas into something functional and entertaining that other people will actually pay money to play. It's a creative and technical skill and unless you create something to demonstrate that you have that skill, even a portfolio is worthless, because ideas on paper don't equal design talent.

If there weren't already 3 pages of this discussion, I might have been more patient with you. But all I really see at this point is your incessant whining and arguing and brash dismissal of everybody here that's telling you the bold truth, which is - PUT UP OR SHUT UP! So why bother?

Bottom line is this. You have no idea what you're talking about. Every single one of your assumptions is blatantly incorrect. Your ideas do sound like derivative dribble. You haven't demonstrated any real effort to accomplish your goal - making maps for a game you like is a start but only that. So sadly, this is probably simultaneously the beginning and end of your "gaming career". Short lived. Thankfully.

You're what we like to call an "Arm-Chair Designer". You like to come up with ideas. You like to think that your ideas are special, unique, beautiful flowers. You're not interested in understanding technology or how game art is made. You're not interested in doing any work. You want all of the control and none of the responsibility. You'd just like to sit there, pretending to be Miyamoto, barking design orders at a team of significantly more talented people (than yourself), and just smile as everyone else puts in the long hours to realize your "vision". Oh, and let's not forget that you'll also sit there and boldly critique and correct them, because you know better, of course.

Yes, an Arm-Chair Designer indeed, which is why we hate and reject those people and they get nowhere. This type of person is the truest bastard in the industry.

So, very simply, either get busy with a mod team or some education that's going to help you understand how games are made, or just go write a book - or make a movie - since those seem to involve less effort which is clearly very attractive to you (not that there's any truth to that notion).

#73 Hawkins8   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 07:28 PM

Quote:
Original post by Nozyspy
Anyway, this thread has reached its limit of usefulness for me, I appreciate the replies guys, especially the ones that were helpful. However I cant help but feel somewhat worried about the future of game design, afterall in our modding community ideas, whoever comes up with them, are treated with a certain amount of respect, far from being ‘worthless’.

Maybe I will stick to writing a book instead. . Or if I feel lazy and suddenly become rich, get a ghost writer to do it for me…

But anyway, I’m sure you have heard quite enough of me, obviously this is world where I have not done enough to be welcome, therefore I thank you all for your time, and say goodbye!



Hey Nozyspy, I understand what your fructuation is. Some of your points made here are quite legitimate.

Fact:
A genius designer is gifted and born with. Not any hard working nor any experience nor any academic qualification can make one a genius designer. A genius designer is genius because he's genius. And only a genius designer can make excellent games. It's more or less like any artists or even any politicians, what is magical is the gifted part, not the hard-working part, not the experience part, and not the academic qualification part. Hard working plus experience plus sound qualification will never never never make any genius artists or desingers or politicians.

That said, a genius designer knows how important hard working is, how important experience is and sometimes how important qualification is to assist his art works.

Without good ideas there will be no good games at all, and only a genius designer will have the correct set of 'good ideas' which are not only implementable technically, but also will result in the great games. So no, not everyone will have those decisive ideas which can result in great games. To simply put, the greatest designers are not someone replacable with hard working, experience and academic qualifications. Just like the greatest artists and even politicians in human history.

So all you need is a good game engine to lessen your effort/cost/money to bring your good ideas into reality for everyone to appreciate. This is not allowed yet due to the fact that such a good game engine is technologically not available. You have to either persuade those big bosses to invest, or to make it yourself. The big bosses are usually stupid, they tend to fall for lies by those extremely communicative scammers instead of trusting a great designer. To put it short, they will treat great designers as scammers and will treat scammers as great designers simply because they are usually stupid and great designers can hardly be with candy-coated words as scammers.

So the only option is that you have to fund yourself for such a game engine to implement your ideas. Or else, you may have to wait for human technology to be mature and cheap enough to use at all. Microsoft XNA is just in its infant stage, it is not good yet at all. You need a good game engine and an arsenal of artistic works such as toom models and game items. By the current human technology, a good game engine plus the tons of sound artistic works may worth more than 10 million bucks. That's the point!

Moreover, all the executives inside any indy studio need to be politically correct. So they will not hire you or else they will be fired.

[Edited by - Hawkins8 on October 14, 2008 1:28:32 AM]

#74 QuantifyFun   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 09:28 AM

Quote:
Original post by Hawkins8
Fact:
A genius designer is gifted and born with. Not any hard working nor any experience nor any academic qualification can make one a genius designer. A genius designer is genius because he's genius. And only a genius designer can make excellent games.\


That is most definitely not a fact, most certainly not true, and actually somewhat absurd to say...

#75 Kriuq   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 07:54 PM

Quote:
Original post by QuantifyFun
Quote:
Original post by Hawkins8
Fact:
A genius designer is gifted and born with. Not any hard working nor any experience nor any academic qualification can make one a genius designer. A genius designer is genius because he's genius. And only a genius designer can make excellent games.\


That is most definitely not a fact, most certainly not true, and actually somewhat absurd to say...


Indeed, and what an overly depressing view he has on life and the industry!

Thanks for attempting to clear up this thread, QuantifyFun.

#76 Hawkins8   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 08:09 PM

Quote:
Original post by QuantifyFun
Quote:
Original post by Hawkins8
Fact:
A genius designer is gifted and born with. Not any hard working nor any experience nor any academic qualification can make one a genius designer. A genius designer is genius because he's genius. And only a genius designer can make excellent games.\


That is most definitely not a fact, most certainly not true, and actually somewhat absurd to say...


Ah, thanks for your comment without a valid argumnet in it (you lack it?).

You want fact? The fact is, the mediocre indys today who only know how to clone from EQ caused alot of complainers saying that they have no good game to play. That's the fact, a fact due to the lack of the gifted designers in the industry.

[Edited by - Hawkins8 on October 15, 2008 2:09:50 AM]

#77 QuantifyFun   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 08:51 PM

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Original post by Hawkins8
Quote:
Original post by QuantifyFun
Quote:
Original post by Hawkins8
Fact:
A genius designer is gifted and born with. Not any hard working nor any experience nor any academic qualification can make one a genius designer. A genius designer is genius because he's genius. And only a genius designer can make excellent games.\


That is most definitely not a fact, most certainly not true, and actually somewhat absurd to say...


Ah, thanks for your comment without a valid argumnet (you lack it?).

You want fact? The fact is, the mediocre indys today who only know how to clone from EQ caused alot of complainers saying that they have no good game to play. That's the fact, a fact due to the lack of the gifted designers in the industry.


If you need me to explain why you can't state that silly opinion as if it were a fact, than there are some life lessons you still need to learn and I can't help you.

I'm done with this thread. No flame war intended, just keepin' it real.

#78 dashurc   Members   -  Reputation: 232

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 05:59 AM

Quote:
Original post by Nozyspy
What I feel is that the industry simply ignores people like that and rather hires people who share their philosophy of ‘money money money’ rather than ‘lets make a game people will really enjoy and keep playing for the next 10 years!’
Noz



Others have said what I'm about to say, but I'll say it again anyways.

There's a financial responsibility that every publicly shared company (which pretty much all publishers would be) to their shareholders. And that is to give them a return on their investment.

Making a big-budget game is very risky, and requires multi-millions to make ($20,000,000 + in some cases). The longer the development cycle (and a AAA title needs a LOOOONG dev cycle for a first iteration title), the longer it takes before shareholders will see a return on their cummulative millions of dollars. Pissing away money for 4 years in hopes that you'll get a return is not a smart investment. This is why you see so many sequels, because it's a safer investment.

"Oh, Halo sold 8 million copies. Halo 2 should be able to do the same and we'd only need to invest for 2 years. I'll invest in that."

Games with smaller scales (say a smaller more focused game that only has 10 hours of playtime instead of a huge 40 hour masterpiece) are more appealing since the dev-cycle is shorter and ROI is faster.

If it's risky to invest in something, less people will invest. If less people invest, where is a company going to find the money to make the game?

Also, if a huge investment is made and that money is not recouped, huge ramifications are seen in terms of employees being let go. Why would hardworking employees want their company to hire unproven workers for top design positions? I've worked with bright eyed people, with great ideas, and a lot of times they either get frustrated with financial realities or technical limitations, and end up slacking off and being terrible employees. If these people were given more responsibility up front we'd have been screwed.

This is a reality in all industries. You haven't really given any real examples of some no-name having been entrusted with millions of dollars to build their dream work.

You don't hear a painter say: Man, I have such a great idea for a painting, but no one wants to give me money to paint it. Painters paint.

Directors make movies (Kevin Smith spent his own money and made a movie he didn't think would go anywhere, but the key is that he MADE a movie).

Musicians write and perform music (and optionally record) before they're offered a record deal.

I can pretty much guarantee that a screenplay writer with no experience has to know people, or have done something before they get their story made into a movie.

To be successful you need to DO somehing successful, not whine about it.
You're still young, and I was probably the same way at your age (hell, at one point I wanted to write my own C++ book since other books used too many proper technical terms... WTF???)


#79 Hawkins8   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 04:32 PM

Quote:
Original post by QuantifyFun
If you need me to explain why you can't state that silly opinion as if it were a fact, than there are some life lessons you still need to learn and I can't help you.

I'm done with this thread. No flame war intended, just keepin' it real.


The term 'EQ clone' itself is self-explanatory enough to state the truth. Live with that. Continue to live in denial does none helpful to the industry.

I start to know why a giant such as EA has to embrace a 10-year-old UO for its its own survival in the MMORPG game sector. Its executives never think that they lack the genius to...hmm...patching such an old game.

#80 RivieraKid   Members   -  Reputation: 375

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 10:19 AM

Quote:
Original post by Hawkins8
Quote:
Original post by QuantifyFun
If you need me to explain why you can't state that silly opinion as if it were a fact, than there are some life lessons you still need to learn and I can't help you.

I'm done with this thread. No flame war intended, just keepin' it real.


The term 'EQ clone' itself is self-explanatory enough to state the truth. Live with that. Continue to live in denial does none helpful to the industry.

I start to know why a giant such as EA has to embrace a 10-year-old UO for its its own survival in the MMORPG game sector. Its executives never think that they lack the genius to...hmm...patching such an old game.


wipe the rabid foam from your chin and start again.

game design is a process. It has creative elements but its mainly down to experience, motivation and inspiration - the giants dont care about such things and thus make crap games, it has nothing to do with ability, its just money and time.




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