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A Nobody with a good idea - Why cant we have a crack at game design too?


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#101 Tom Sloper   Moderators   -  Reputation: 10062

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Posted 26 October 2008 - 05:52 PM

Don't worry. This thread drifted off quite a while ago anyway. As many of them do.

Sponsor:

#102 SuperG   Members   -  Reputation: 539

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 12:37 AM

Tom sloper. I read your site. And this thread falls in the lessons you show on your site.
What case falls nozyspy in?

Small recap.
Unexperienced want to be set on top of a professional team as game designer doing a attemp of his great idea to production. Why not?
Your site shows a lot of reasonable point why it is a big not done.


#103 ToohrVyk   Members   -  Reputation: 1591

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 02:02 AM

I like playing Flash games online. A lot of them have good ideas, good graphics and good programming, so I try them out.

But they're not fun. A lot of them have obviously never been playtested except by their creators. They're difficult to understand (because the designer seems to think that an instruction manual is enough), difficult to play (because the designer seems to think that "difficult to win" is the same as "difficult to play") and have rough edges worthy of stone age flint arrowheads.

The real job of a game designer is not to pitch an initial idea—that first step is always deceivingly easy. What a game designer does is solve problems: when a playtester finds that a certain feature in a game is not fun, the game designer should swallow his pride, accept that his design is flawed, and propose a solution which retains the flavor of the game, fits in with all the other elements, and is fun.

I personally find this aspect of game development boring to no end (and I've done it on at least one commercial title), and I strongly suspect that anyone would find it immensely annoying when you have to think of seven different designs and reject all of them beta after beta, and ultimately give up on that idea because you've finally come to accept that it can't be fun. In fact, if I thought you were able to handle that, then I'd certainly pay you to do the work. But are you able to do it?



#104 Metz   Members   -  Reputation: 201

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 04:35 AM

I'd like to reply in a manner unrelated to my other replies.

Have a crack at game design. Why not? Anyone can have a crack at programming, at modelling and at music composition. So go ahead and have a crack at game design, no one's stopping you. If you want to make it your career, you need to know how the industry works. Like, how ideas are worthless. And, how money is a ruling factor. But go ahead, try it anyway. You can make games without having a 100-man team and $10,000,000 behind you.

#105 QuantifyFun   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 10:39 PM

Tom Sloper! Start making games again! With XBLA, PSN, and the iPhone out there, you have no excuse! We miss you Tom.

#106 Tom Sloper   Moderators   -  Reputation: 10062

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 04:26 AM

Quote:
Original post by QuantifyFun
Tom Sloper! Start making games again! With XBLA, PSN, and the iPhone out there, you have no excuse! We miss you Tom.

Don't need no excuse. I'm working on an XBLA/PSN game, so what's to miss?

#107 QuantifyFun   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 10:04 AM

Quote:
Original post by Tom Sloper
Quote:
Original post by QuantifyFun
Tom Sloper! Start making games again! With XBLA, PSN, and the iPhone out there, you have no excuse! We miss you Tom.

Don't need no excuse. I'm working on an XBLA/PSN game, so what's to miss?


Music to my ears.


#108 Cpt Mothballs   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 11:45 AM

Get to know people in the business.

It's not hard.

Then, when it comes down to it and you're desperate enough, use their connections to get you those five minutes.

If people with experience respect you and put a good word in for you, it's almost the same as having all that experience yourself.

This works for most types of media.
I've never actually tried.
I don't want to start wearing a wig before I'm 20.

#109 QuantifyFun   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 04:21 PM

Quote:
Original post by Cpt Mothballs
Get to know people in the business.

It's not hard.

Then, when it comes down to it and you're desperate enough, use their connections to get you those five minutes.

If people with experience respect you and put a good word in for you, it's almost the same as having all that experience yourself.

This works for most types of media.
I've never actually tried.
I don't want to start wearing a wig before I'm 20.


Actually, this forum -IS- your access to people in the business.

What's interesting to me is that most of the aspiring designers here seem to be ignoring that blessing. The advice is always the same - start modding, build some experience and prestige within the community, go to one of the game schools, etc. But the majority never do this. They appear to be chasing some shortcut that doesn't exist. Your post reads like a shining example of just that.

So, in a way, you've already had your five minutes. It was spent with somebody telling you to -DO SOMETHING- with your aspirations.

You're not going to get a meeting with Producers at a Publisher or a Game Developer to pitch your big idea. Doesn't happen. You need to use one of the many existing avenues to demonstrate your creativity, or just give up.

#110 Cpt Mothballs   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 10:55 AM

Haha.

It's funny because you think the world is this giant ball of law and order.

I'm sure there are billions of examples of what I've just said.

People already in a business, giving you a leg up.

I seem to remember reading about something like that a while ago...
It had something to do with a designer or producer of Tabula Rasa.

He had a girlfriend who was an artist or something and she gave him a job at the studio.

Sure it's not jumping straight into a design position.
But you could only ever do that if the producers or designers were like family or something.
Extended family might work.

But hey, you know.
Totally disregard what I'm saying because you underestimate the power of connections.

#111 dgreen02   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1176

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 06:02 PM

I love these threads.

:-)

#112 stimarco   Members   -  Reputation: 1071

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 01:43 AM

Quote:
Original post by Cpt Mothballs
Haha.

It's funny because you think the world is this giant ball of law and order.


Er, did you bother reading QuantifyFun's post? He didn't disagree with you. He pointed out that this forum is a way of talking directly to people who work in the industry.

In any case, no producer or publisher worth a damn will green-light a complete game from a total neophyte on the basis of a design document. This isn't Hollywood: we just don't do it that way. Seriously. I can count the number of AAA titles designed by rank newbies on the fingers of my left elbow.

Game design is seen as an iterative process. It doesn't stop the moment you complete your design document. Changes, tweaks and even entire rewrites of that document are not unusual. Having a track record as someone who can handle this process is key. Writing the design document proves nothing about your ability to see the game game through to completion on time and on budget. Features may need to be dropped due to time constraints; which features can go? Compromises may have to be made to keep the game inside the budget; can you merge two characters together to save having to hire another actor for the voice work?

Marketing material needs to be created -- yes, that's often part of your job too!

You have to keep the flame burning, whatever your mental state. Game design on this level is a marathon, not a sprint. It's nowhere near as glamorous as people think it is.
Sean Timarco Baggaley (Est. 1971.)Warning: May contain bollocks.

#113 QuantifyFun   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 07:30 AM

Quote:
Original post by Cpt Mothballs
Haha.

It's funny because you think the world is this giant ball of law and order.

I'm sure there are billions of examples of what I've just said.

People already in a business, giving you a leg up.

I seem to remember reading about something like that a while ago...
It had something to do with a designer or producer of Tabula Rasa.

He had a girlfriend who was an artist or something and she gave him a job at the studio.

Sure it's not jumping straight into a design position.
But you could only ever do that if the producers or designers were like family or something.
Extended family might work.

But hey, you know.
Totally disregard what I'm saying because you underestimate the power of connections.


So, let me make sure I understand...

Your suggestion is that you vaguely remember reading or hearing about somebody who got some kind of job working on Tabula Rasa because their girlfriend was an artist or something like that. It had something to do with a designer or producer, yet it wasn't jumping straight into a design position.

Wow. I can only LOL at that whole statement.

Here's the bottom line...

Tabula Rasa (a bad example to give) is largely considered a massive failure. If that's the kind of hiring they did (not to say that anything you've suggested is even remotely true), than perhaps that's why it failed.

If nepotism and blind favors is your preferred avenue into gaming, go for it! What you say is true, connections are a powerful thing - although if they're used to hire inexperienced people into important positions, I'd prefer to call that "irresponsible" or "moronic" rather than networking.

As for me and, it's a definite pass. Don't call us, we'll call you.

#114 Tom Sloper   Moderators   -  Reputation: 10062

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 10:34 AM

Quote:
Original post by QuantifyFun
If nepotism and blind favors is your preferred avenue into gaming, go for it! What you say is true, connections are a powerful thing - although if they're used to hire inexperienced people into important positions, I'd prefer to call that "irresponsible" or "moronic" rather than networking.

Reminds me of the time... Unnamed employer had just gone through a major restructuring AND a move into a new building. We didn't yet have security measures in place, like requiring all employees to have an electronic key card to get in.
I was in QA talking to one of the testers, and another guy (who I'd seen before but hadn't met yet) piped in with his two cents on the matter. He wasn't even assigned to test my game, which made it seem strange to me. I went to the QA manager and asked who the guy was. Turned out he was just the buddy of one of the testers, and the tester was bringing him in to work because the buddy wanted to learn about being a QA tester.
That guy (the buddy) was ushered out right away, and the tester was admonished about bringing non-employees in. I don't think he lasted too long after that.

-- Tom Sloper
Sloperama Productions
Making games fun and getting them done.
www.sloperama.com

Please do not PM me. My email address is easy to find, but note that I do not give private advice.

#115 MrDaaark   Members   -  Reputation: 3555

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 11:00 AM

Quote:
Original post by Tom Sloper
That guy (the buddy) was ushered out right away
Heh. I think we have a confirmed sighting of this mythical 'random guy off the street'.



#116 Cpt Mothballs   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 11:58 AM


Quote:
Your suggestion is that you vaguely remember reading or hearing about somebody who got some kind of job working on Tabula Rasa because their girlfriend was an artist or something like that. It had something to do with a designer or producer, yet it wasn't jumping straight into a design position.

Here's the bottom line...

Tabula Rasa (a bad example to give) is largely considered a massive failure. If that's the kind of hiring they did (not to say that anything you've suggested is even remotely true), than perhaps that's why it failed.

If nepotism and blind favors is your preferred avenue into gaming, go for it! What you say is true, connections are a powerful thing - although if they're used to hire inexperienced people into important positions, I'd prefer to call that "irresponsible" or "moronic" rather than networking.

As for me and, it's a definite pass. Don't call us, we'll call you.


That's not the point.

He made the first move because someone helped him do it.

The people who don't make the first move don't make that first move because they want something to fall in their laps.

The road he took (although it led him to TR), is getting increasingly more difficult to get into now and so it helps if you know people.

I couldn't be bothered quoting that directly because it was taking too long to load.

Most people here know how hard taking that first step is and it does help.
It wasn't the best example but it's the only one I can think of.

I'm sure I'm still missing things.

But if I didn't say it in my last post, he went into an entry level position and worked his way up from there.

Off topic, why can't you dodge bullets in TR? What's their excuse?

#117 SuperG   Members   -  Reputation: 539

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 12:25 PM

CPT. your example is one of a easy way in a company . But that not the topic.
But the key argument of getting experience and realy work his way up. Still hold and this guy obious did. That's just hardwork for years.

The topic is this. Easy way in straight to gamedesigner position without experience. A nobody doing his own great Game dream with big kapital backup from publisher. With only max a GDD.


#118 LynxJSA   Members   -  Reputation: 139

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 03:14 PM

Quote:
Off topic, why can't you dodge bullets in TR? What's their excuse?


Other than Earth and Beyond Online and Asheron's Call, I don't know of any other MMOs where you can dodge missile objects.



#119 QuantifyFun   Members   -  Reputation: 100

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 08:55 PM

Quote:
Original post by Cpt Mothballs

Quote:
Your suggestion is that you vaguely remember reading or hearing about somebody who got some kind of job working on Tabula Rasa because their girlfriend was an artist or something like that. It had something to do with a designer or producer, yet it wasn't jumping straight into a design position.

Here's the bottom line...

Tabula Rasa (a bad example to give) is largely considered a massive failure. If that's the kind of hiring they did (not to say that anything you've suggested is even remotely true), than perhaps that's why it failed.

If nepotism and blind favors is your preferred avenue into gaming, go for it! What you say is true, connections are a powerful thing - although if they're used to hire inexperienced people into important positions, I'd prefer to call that "irresponsible" or "moronic" rather than networking.

As for me and, it's a definite pass. Don't call us, we'll call you.


That's not the point.

He made the first move because someone helped him do it.

The people who don't make the first move don't make that first move because they want something to fall in their laps.

The road he took (although it led him to TR), is getting increasingly more difficult to get into now and so it helps if you know people.

I couldn't be bothered quoting that directly because it was taking too long to load.

Most people here know how hard taking that first step is and it does help.
It wasn't the best example but it's the only one I can think of.

I'm sure I'm still missing things.

But if I didn't say it in my last post, he went into an entry level position and worked his way up from there.

Off topic, why can't you dodge bullets in TR? What's their excuse?


Profound backtracking. You entertain me, sir.

#120 domhnall4h   Members   -  Reputation: 176

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 11:25 PM

Y'all forgot the easiest way to get into game design. Win the lottery and use the winnings to start up a company.

There you go; you can design any game, as long as YOU don't mind sinking 20-30 million of your money into it straight off the bat, with little to no hope of ever recovering a single red cent (or even getting it published and sold).




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