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Has any1 tried making a 3d game with mouse aiming?


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#1 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 28 December 1999 - 09:40 PM

I was wondering if anyone has made a game, like quake, but with the mouse pointer for aiming. So instead of shooting straightforward, and having to play around with like the a and z keys, you could just point and shoot at an enemy. The keys are still used for movement however, but the mouse button is used for firing. Has any1 ever made a game like this? If so please tell me about it, or tell me what you think about this idea. The major draw backs to this (that I have thought of are not having full use of the keyboard, and you might be looking straight forward at your enemy, but'll shoot into a corner because your pointer is there. Also it might strain the wrist, and because most people are used to using their right hand for the arrow keys and for the mosue they might have trouble adjusting to this. But I believe it would make the game more fun to play, because you would be in more control of your aim, so some one can't just shoot, and hit anything in their view field.

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#2 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 26 November 1999 - 01:16 PM

Yeah, let's see...
There's...
Quake...
Quake 2...
Duke Nukem 3D, I believe...
Descent, perhaps...
Any Quake engine game...
Perhaps you should have a look around their control menus. =)

#3 benjamin bunny   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 838

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Posted 26 November 1999 - 01:49 PM

And unreal

#4 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 26 November 1999 - 01:53 PM

Uhhhh, guys, I think he meant something to the effect of having a mouse pointer on the screen that you use to aim. So firing is more of a point and click type thing

#5 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696

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Posted 26 November 1999 - 02:35 PM

I believe they had a control scheme similiar to what your talking about in the original System Shock (not in the sequel though). Personally, I found it annoying. I like the regular Quake one.

Just my 2 cents.

--TheGoop


#6 justin2020   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 28 November 1999 - 06:32 PM

a somewhat cynical response...

As I understand it, this would be different from Quake because the aiming would be independent from the navigation.

Now, I believe this would make the game much more difficult, because if you are tracking a monster with your mouse, and he runs off screen, then you have to follow him with the keys in addition to trying to track him with the mouse. Thus, you have to coordinate with both hands, whereas in Quake you only track with one hand.

Does this make sense?

Justin Martenstein


#7 Splat   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 28 November 1999 - 07:02 PM

This type of control system was (and still in some ways is) being experimented on by me. It is in many ways far more realistic for first-person shooters, since in real life you can easily be running one direction and shooting in another. MechWarrior has a system like this, where you could move the crosshairs around the display to aim and shoot but still be walking in a different direction, but that's for slow, clunky mechs. I'm not quite sure how successful it would be in a fast-paced game like Quake 3 or Half-Life, but that's exactly why I am experimenting with it.

So, to answer the initial question, check out MechWarrior.

Good night, I'm too tired to be up on a message board posting.... zzzzzZZZZZZ

- Splat


#8 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 28 November 1999 - 10:28 PM

I tried a demo of a game that had this type of control set up. I believe it was called Vigilence, but I may be wrong. I found that the countrols were very difficult to get use to. It was a real pain to be climbing stairs and looking around, I frequently fell since I wasn't watching where I was going and had to climb again.

It would probably be more acceptable if while holding down another key the mouse control was like Quake/Half-Life. That way you get the best of both worlds and doesn't piss people off that don't like the different controls.


#9 STG   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 28 November 1999 - 10:49 PM

I'm not convinced but I think there was a game called 'Cyclones' that did a similar thing. If I remember correctly it came out at the same sort of time as Quake.



#10 Nobby   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 02 December 1999 - 04:02 PM

Using the independent point/crosshair control is good and all but what would you use to control your rotation? I mean if you maintain the Quake/Doom/FPS etc. keyboard controls,[strafe L/R, move FWD/BWD], and your
mouse is doing its own thing (not rotating), how do you intend to have the user turn?
Is there going to be another pair of keys that would be bound for the turning???
(if that's the case, I wouldn't recommend
it since most users tend to like to control their own rate/speed of rotation). Basically, the turning input is digital (if you use the solution I suggested) (either start turning or not) and not analog-like (I only want to turn a little bit or I need to turn a lot/VERY fast etc. in which current mouse interface uses).

How did the game Cyclone, solve that problem?
The only way I think it would marginally work is if you had the rotation controlled by the mouse, where the player would turn when the cursor hits the border of the screen (either left or right). In otherwords it would work similar to the mouse interface for RTS games where you 'scroll' when you hit the border of the visible 'map' etc.
The drawback to this is the response time would probably be (relatively speaking) SLOW.

Well, whatever you decide to use, please let me know how it goes. I'm kind of curious how gameplay would be affected by this new 'factor'.

Good luck


#11 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 02 December 1999 - 04:49 PM

Terra Nova used this type of system. The controls were not for the faint-hearted, but they were manageable, and would have been pretty darned good, had they been customizable...

The trick seems to lie,as has been noted, in keeping movement on an even keel, and not handicapping the player by slowing their ability to turn too much.

Anyway,

signing off,
mikey


#12 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 02 December 1999 - 06:40 PM

What about doing things slightly different. Use the mouse to target the "enemy" and then when the mouse button is clicked on it, the system will auto target the enemy as you pursue it. Now you can use the arrow keys to navigate the environment and use another keyboard key for firing. This will allow you to use both hands comfortably

Of course, then we'll have to get into accuracy of the user's character and so on (maybe some sort of accuracy skill)...


#13 Nobby   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 03 December 1999 - 01:35 PM

It would be cool if you had an auto-targeting as Pete suggested but it would create the disorientation problem though.
If the machine's doing the 'looking' for you, you're bound to get mixed up with your current orientation (meaning, if you go forward, you won't necessarily move toward where you're looking but where your body is oriented). So if you're locked on a target and the target moves 90 degr. to your left, pressing forward will give the feeling of strafing right (from your perspective) etc.
Kinda confusing in my view.

A psuedo example is like the Mechwarrior game. Torso twisting and moving forward backwards and maintaing proper (mental) orientation of where you're facing relative to the rest of your chassis can be quite a task (especially during close combat where I twist A LOT lt/rt and I forget which way the turning/moving-forward is going to take me relative to my view).

In a FPS, the speed of combat is much much faster and instinctive so this disorientation will probably manifest itself several fold, in my opinion.

My $0.02...


#14 Facehat   Members   -  Reputation: 696

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Posted 04 December 1999 - 04:10 AM

Here's my opinion on why the control scheme Guru101 mentioned wouldn't work:

First person shooters are basically games of reflex, instict, and thinking quickly. The current Quake-like control scheme found in many games is good in that it doesn't get in your way -- yet it still allows nice control where your aiming and moving. (BTW, the quake-like control scheme i'm talking about is the one where you use the mouse to look around and the AWSD keys to move forward/backwards and strafe left/right). Anyway, the problem with the control scheme Guru101 mentioned is that it doesn't give you a lot more control, and it's much more difficult to use. Besides that, it basically dictates that you have to stand still while aiming since it's so hard to shoot something while moving in that control scheme.

That's not to say that I think it doesn't have a place in some games. It wouldn't work well in an action game, but in something where you wanted more realism and with a bit less action that control scheme might work very well.

Just my 2 cents

--TheGoop


#15 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 21 December 1999 - 10:56 AM

A game called Recoil uses this method of aiming,And it still allows you to navigate with the mouse. When you get near the edge of the screen the tank turns. It works supprisingly well.
You should still be able to download a demo of it at ZDNET.

#16 jtecin   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 December 1999 - 04:52 PM

Wait a sec, if you're just referring to mouse for firing and aiming and keys as navigation, then Rainbow 6 and Half-life are both like that. I didn't read all the previous posts so I don't know if we're still talking about this, but I am just answering the top post.

#17 GalaxyD   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 23 December 1999 - 03:22 PM

I think two really good examples to look at are Battlezone and Trespasser. Both of these used the mouse to look around and aim your weapon, but the WASD keys to actually move your character. I've always liked the idea of switching between modes, like pressing a key to go in and out of attack mode. That way, if you wanted to stand and aim (and maybe use some special ability of your weapon) you could, or you could just shoot from the hip while running.

Good luck!


#18 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 28 December 1999 - 05:19 PM

Hi,

There's a game called Abuse which used a system that you speak of, although it was 2D.

However, thinking about the turning problem, my keys would be

WASD for movement
Mouse moves a crosshair, but if the crosshair moves too far left or right, then the player turns. (you could also have q and e for quickmove, or a 180 degree spin button, etc, etc).

Personally, I feel this would only work in a 3rd person view like Tomb Raider. Then if you used the lock on feature discussed above, you could see that your character is actually twisting their torso all the time to look at the target, but would still walk forwards, not towards the target.

Anyway, that's all for the moment...


#19 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 28 December 1999 - 05:21 PM

ps.

there's also a nintendo 64 game called Jet Force Gemini which uses the switching you were talking about, and the crosshair aiming.

Basically I think it is what you're after. Check it out


#20 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 28 December 1999 - 08:01 PM

If you are going to do this the make the mouse for steering as well and make the default movement keys w for forward s for backward and a and d for straffing. This is the set up in half life and everyone I know sets their controls to this in all of their action games so your on the right track.
Keep up the good work and all the best.
CoOlGuY

P.S JMHO





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