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PSX Net Yaroze developement and PS2 Linux


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#1 KwamiMatrix   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 08 August 2001 - 11:42 AM

Hi everyone. I would like to know if anyone knows if and how I could obtain a Net Yaroze playstation dev kit. You know, the black Playstation that serves as a developement Playstation. I would still really like one. I also hope that Sony Computer Entertainment brings PS2 Linux to the US. I also want to have experience developing for my PS2. If you haven''t visited www.ps2linux.scea.com, go there and say yes to purchasing PS2 Linux if it came to the USA! The more support, the better. You can also check out www.runix.ru, and see there version of the Linux kernel for PSX. There will also be a version of Linux by them for PS2. thankx. Edem Attiogbe

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#2 mafried   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 08 August 2001 - 01:19 PM

Check ebay daily. People have auctioned off their Yaroze systems from time to time.

#3 Drakonite   Members   -  Reputation: 215

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Posted 08 August 2001 - 02:14 PM

Sony no longer sells the yaroze. Like it has been said, you can get one off of ebay if you keep an eye out.

There is currently a group of people on this site, that are going to try and set up a petition, that appears to be along the lines of "please re-release yaroze, or atleast some doc''s on how to make psx games" that I have somewhat started, and am somewhat the head of.

I''ll get working on writing the petition as soon as possible, but I just don''t have enough spare time to get it done for a while.

There are resources to make psx games without a yaroze, however they are no where near as sony''s documents would be.

For information about the current status of the petition, or just information about psx dev, I am starting a new post today, about the current status.

I don''t mean to be rude, but please do not post in more than one channel. This is bothersome, and I promise you that you will not get any responses faster. Especially since you are asking for info on where to get yaroze, and anyone who would know good enough to say, would be watching the console dev forum. Thank you.



Drakonite

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#4 KwamiMatrix   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 09 August 2001 - 01:49 AM

Great, I fully support a petition for Sony Computer Entertainment to re-release the Net Yaroze. When it is ready, include me.

Edem Attiogbe

#5 Kwizatz   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 1200

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Posted 09 August 2001 - 02:06 AM

why use a yaroze?
I code with my grey 7500 Playstation, you need a bunch of stuff, but you can get it to work for development,

check:

psx.rules.org
psxdev.de
napalm.intelinet.com
dev.paradogs.com


#6 mlambert   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 562

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Posted 09 August 2001 - 07:03 AM

"why use a yaroze?"

Because it''s legal.

Because you get all the official documentation and updates without waiting for it to appear (and you have to hunt) on the net.

Because you get full Sony support, which means proper technician answers.

Because against what most of the hacker sites say, it is a much better system than the illegal hacks. Games that appear on the yaroze have been consistently better than most illegal games. There is also a huge list of people who have entered into the industry because of the Yaroze, or even games that have appeared on the shelf that started life as Yaroze games.

Because $250(last cost) for a license and tools to one of the most popular systems every created is a pretty good alternative to being a hacker.



BTW before anyone takes offence, I''m not against the people who choose not to use the alternative means, I communicate with a few of them frequently, however I''m just responding to the direct question as someone who has used both means.





Marc Lambert

marc@darkhex.com

#7 mafried   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 09 August 2001 - 09:59 AM

Sorry for the OT post, and mlambert, this is not a personal attack at you or anything.

quote:
Original post by mlambert
Because it''s legal.



Hold on - how is what these "PSX Hackers" doing illegal? I just want to get that straitened out first..

quote:
Original post by mlambert
Because you get all the official documentation and updates without waiting for it to appear (and you have to hunt) on the net.



Not everyone out there uses the official Sony docs. In fact, almost all of the so-called "PSX Hackers" don''t. Some people have done a phenominal amount of work in reverse engineering the playstation, all in a 100% legal way.

quote:
Original post by mlambert
Because against what most of the hacker sites say, it is a much better system than the illegal hacks.



Any system is only as good as the person that uses it. The so-called "hacker-system" is almost exactly the same as that used by the Yaroze, just without the accompaning software.

quote:
Original post by mlambert
Games that appear on the yaroze have been consistently better than most illegal games. There is also a huge list of people who have entered into the industry because of the Yaroze, or even games that have appeared on the shelf that started life as Yaroze games.



This again falls back to the issue of documentation. These "illegal games" (why are they illegal?) were made with very little knowledge of the underlying hardware, and their documentation almost entirely consists of educated guesses, and the gurantee that only 50% is likely to be correct.

Just the very idea that they were able to work in this limeted environment, with really very little idea of how the hardware works, and are actually able to create something is pretty phenominal, in my own humble opinion.

But maybe that''s just me.

-mark

#8 Drakonite   Members   -  Reputation: 215

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Posted 09 August 2001 - 10:51 AM

I''m don''t have a lot of time right now, but I gotta answer this so I applogize if any of this seems blunt and to the point.

quote:
Original post by mafried
Hold on - how is what these "PSX Hackers" doing illegal? I just want to get that straitened out first..


It''s not. Once you buy something, you can do whatever you want to it. Even light it on fire and burn it if you want. However, it IS illegal if you sell a game you have made for it.

quote:

Any system is only as good as the person that uses it. The so-called "hacker-system" is almost exactly the same as that used by the Yaroze, just without the accompaning software.


Wrong. The libs, doc, and tools that come with the yaroze are far better than the hacked ones, and the official dev kit ones they sell to companies are far better than the yaroze.

quote:
This again falls back to the issue of documentation. These "illegal games" (why are they illegal?)

They are illeagal if you try to sell them because of licensing issues. Other than that they are not.
quote:

were made with very little knowledge of the underlying hardware, and their documentation almost entirely consists of educated guesses, and the gurantee that only 50% is likely to be correct.


This is one reason yaroze is better -- the docs. But don''t forget, even if they know all the stuff, the libs with the yaroze are better than the ones that have been hacked out.

quote:

Just the very idea that they were able to work in this limited environment, with really very little idea of how the hardware works, and are actually able to create something is pretty phenominal, in my own humble opinion.

But maybe that''s just me.

-mark

yes it is. but think about what could be done with all the info sony would give.

sorry if I was blunt, but so you know I''m not flaming you--- i agree with you in some areas. i don''t enough time to say more now though.




Drakonite

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#9 KwamiMatrix   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 09 August 2001 - 01:51 PM

Well, I agree with Drakonite. The Net Yaroze is the official hobbyist development Playstation, so the hardware will work better and will be more stable than any reverse engineered PSX. Secondly, with the software developement kits and libraries, it is only obvious that Sony''s software libraries are far better than any hacked version. Speaking of hacked versions, does anyone know how a hacker would go about developing their own PSX libraries? Anyway, I want a PSX Net Yaroze bad, along with the PS2 version of the Linux kit and its libraries. Someone was talking about a PSX Net Yaroze petition to Sony Computer Entertainment. Can someone please clue me in as to how to participate. Thanks.

Edem Attiogbe

#10 Drakonite   Members   -  Reputation: 215

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Posted 09 August 2001 - 03:54 PM

That would be me that has been doing the whole sony petition thing... right now I am working on the petition (i''ve actually had some time the past few days!) and someone has been making an online signup page.

Neither of these will be released until the petition is completly ready, for reasons that should be common sense.

The thread that is now the official spot for posting of the news is this one it is located in the console/pda forum

And don''t worry, when it is ready, it will be up for weeks, and probably a month or two, before we compile all the signitures and send it to sony. Yeah, i know that sounds like a while, but dont'' worry, it''s the best way to go.



Drakonite

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#11 mlambert   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 562

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Posted 10 August 2001 - 06:42 AM

Mafried, no worries about taking it as an attack!

However, let me clear something up, most hacked games on these sites do use the Sony libs. You can get them on the net. I believe this is an illegal practice, since those libraries are obtained without license or permission to use them.

I agree that you can potentially make great games using different means, but when I started out psx programming, a lot of these sites liked to (and some still do) point out that they must be better at programming the psx because they managed to hack the system without Sony''s aid, which is complete crap. I''ve used both methods and have sometimes mixed them too (to get games running on an emu).

The underlying question was why use the Yaroze, well I answered it with some valid points, especially the question of the amount of people that have gone into the industry as a direct result of the system. Plus, all the official newsgroups you had access too, where everyone discussed tips and asked for help (much like the forums here), made the whole thing into a community.


As for getting Sony to re-release the Yaroze, recently the Official Playstation Magazine (UK) have started to put the games made by Yarozers back onto the coverdisk, which would add a lot of momentum to your campaign. Also the remaining Yarozers that I know (there are still quite a few), could use our inside resources (i.e the people within Sony who hold some power) to beg for the re-release.








Marc Lambert

marc@darkhex.com

#12 Kwizatz   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 1200

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Posted 10 August 2001 - 09:36 AM

hey Guys, my post was not meant to start a Flame war,

It is true that yaroze is the official way to do it, but they dont sell yarozes anymore, do they? also even using the yaroze, you cant sell your hobbiest home made game, because you need a developer licence fot that, which yaroze is not, you can only share games with other yaroze owners, the yaroze uses MIPS GCC wich is the same hackers use, other than that the only difference on ease of use is that the yaroze owners get to use the infamous "libps.exe", a hobbiest psx api, of course real developers dont use this lib, but they have access to the real developer documents that come with the developer licence and the SN compiler.

I am just saying that if you already have a PSX and an empty ISA, why spend $250 if you can spend $50, buy an action replay and comms link and give it a try?

if It was ilegal how come these sites have been up for years?

#13 mlambert   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 562

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 09:39 AM

Hi,

I don''t see this as a flame war in any way :-)

"also even using the yaroze, you cant sell your hobbiest home made game, because you need a developer licence fot that"

No, the Yaroze is licensed so you can send your games to publishers for viewing and entire games can be made on the system (barring some minor touches). Of course, if you had a game get a publishing license, you would go for the full dev kit anyway.

"if It was ilegal how come these sites have been up for years?"

It''s illegal if you are using Sony''s libs. Besides, it''s well known that the internet is full of illegal sites, just because there is a site for something, that doesn''t make it legal.


I''m not against the hackers or anything, it all depends on what you are aiming to do with your programming knowledge. I''ve used some of the tools and many people use Action replays for Yaroze development. I''m just setting the record straight and I think that if people here are going to lobby for the re-release of a dev kit, then the Yaroze is the ideal one to go for, considering it''s success and current userbase.


Don''t mistake this as a flame :-)





Marc Lambert

marc@darkhex.com

#14 mlambert   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 562

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 12:29 PM

BTW, you can still get the Yarozes from Sony, however they are only supplying them to Universities/Colleges, so if you attend one of these, it may be worth asking your tutor to look into it.



Marc Lambert

marc@darkhex.com

#15 Shannon Barber   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1362

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 01:18 PM

But they''re not using Sony''s libs, that''s the whole point... don''t go spreading rumors that it''s illegal to hack the PSX.

Now, the next thing, just because Sony puts it in a licensing agreement doesn''t make it legal nor illegal either . You''re supposed to sign a bunch of NDA''s and have them officially notarized etc... in order for them to be valid in a court of law. If Sony put “you must kill anyone you tell this information to” in the licensing agreement it clearly would not be legal. Now, Sony probably had lots of lawyers review their agreements to make sure they are legal, but licensing agreement consent is not upheld by default. i.e. “Using this software means you agree to such-and-such” has historically not held in court. That’s why there’s all those “Click Here to Accept” buttons – you need some sort of ritual in order for the courts to even consider an agreement legally binding.

You would probably be sued and lose if you bought the PSX development kit and then contribute to the hacker docs using the information from the official source – because this is expressly forbidden in the licensing agreement.

Now, Sony might like you to think that you can’t hack the PSX, make a game, and distribute it legally, but I bet you could. If you were really successful Sony would sue you to get some money outta'' ya. You would need to minimize your loses, in or out of court.

I forget the name of the company, but I think a company created Nintendo games without their permission and distributed them – they did the Gauntlet port, Pac-Man, and a few others if I am not mistaken. (They were the cool black cartridges.)

This is civil law, not criminal law; there’s no common sense to it; only greased pockets and precedence. If you can win the court case, it’s legal. And you don’t even have to clearly break and agreements or laws to be sued. Think Hasboro.


Magmai Kai Holmlor
- Not For Rent

#16 mlambert   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 562

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 11:40 PM

"But they''re not using Sony''s libs, that''s the whole point... don''t go spreading rumors that it''s illegal to hack the PSX."

I beg to differ, many do use the Sony libs. Those are the ones I''m refering to. I''ve visited many sites that even contain links to download these libs.


The question was why get a Yaroze, well it does depend on what you want the outcome to be.

If you want to do it hobby, then it''s cheaper to go with the AR/Comms method.

If you want to get experiance and get work in the industry, then it''s far better to get a Yaroze.


On the Legal side, I think you''d have many problems trying to explain yourself to Sony and the courts if you were using the Sony Libs, however it''s not illegal to use AR/Comms (and the various other methods), so yes those hackers aren''t in fact doing anything illegal.






Marc Lambert

marc@darkhex.com

#17 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 12 August 2001 - 05:15 AM

mlambert, first of all not everyone uses libps.exe. The yaroze library is a little limiting in what it allows you to do, and many people just code straight to the hardware instead. Many sites on the internet provide it as an option for hacking the psx, but I would guarantee you that it is not a the most popular option. It mostly just appeals to those who really, really, really wanted to be a yaroze developer, but weren''t able to get their hands on an official yaroze system.

Now, the second point I''d like to make is that using libps.exe is just as legal as hacking the psx in the first place if you own a yaroze game . Why? ''Cause libps.exe is included on every yaroze-based game cd. (although it would not be legal to use the official Yaroze header files and library stubs, which is why free legally reverse-engineered header files and stubs have been made availible by hackers on the ''net)

-mark

#18 mafried   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 12 August 2001 - 05:17 AM

Oops, that was me. I didn''t mean for it to be anonymous.

#19 mlambert   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 562

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Posted 13 August 2001 - 06:31 AM

"mlambert, first of all not everyone uses libps.exe. The yaroze library is a little limiting in what it allows you to do, and many people just code straight to the hardware instead."

I will apologize for not making myself clear enough :-). What I am mainly talking about is those that use either the Yaroze libps.exe or the full libs. There are a lot more undergound people who do this, not just coding direct to the hardware.

However there''s no way to define how many use either method, so while it''s true to say that I shouldn''t have used the statement ''because it''s legal'' without elaborating, but also ''don''t go spreading rumors that it''s illegal to hack the PSX.'' works the same way.

The yaroze is limited yes, but only in not using the .avi files. Everything else (and yes even .avi support) can be done, some of us Yarozers do also write to the hardware too.


"Now, the second point I''d like to make is that using libps.exe is just as legal as hacking the psx in the first place if you own a yaroze game . Why? ''Cause libps.exe is included on every yaroze-based game cd. "

Yes, but you shouldn''t have a yaroze game on a cd if it''s not your own game and besides, all my yaroze games are on a cd and none of them provide access to the libps.exe file.



Overall though, it''s pointless debating this much further, because I''m neither for nor against hackers and I get the impresion no-one else here is and it''s been done sooooo many times before, so I promise to stop :-)


Back to the original post and question, forget the legal part for now, if you are serious about console development and want to enter the industry on next gen systems, then trying to get the Yaroze re-released to individuals (yes IT IS still available, through universities and colleges) is the best way to go.

There is still a community for it.

Sony still supports it.

There is a huge list of people who have gone into the industry as a DIRECT result of the Yaroze, I''m one of them.

There are three companies (that I know of) founded by the Yaroze work.

The libs and access are still more advanced than hacker versions, as good as they may be (and as intelligent as the people who made them ;-) ). *This may be debatable by some, but I''ve used various different versions and the yaroze libs are easily my choice* (2nd to the official libs of course)


Sorry for the long post and thanx for the debate :-)




Marc Lambert

marc@darkhex.com

#20 KwamiMatrix   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 13 August 2001 - 04:40 PM

Thanks all

Edem Attiogbe




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