Mafried, no worries about taking it as an attack!
However, let me clear something up, most hacked games on these sites do use the Sony libs. You can get them on the net. I believe this is an illegal practice, since those libraries are obtained without license or permission to use them.
I agree that you can potentially make great games using different means, but when I started out psx programming, a lot of these sites liked to (and some still do) point out that they must be better at programming the psx because they managed to hack the system without Sony''s aid, which is complete crap. I''ve used both methods and have sometimes mixed them too (to get games running on an emu).
The underlying question was why use the Yaroze, well I answered it with some valid points, especially the question of the amount of people that have gone into the industry as a direct result of the system. Plus, all the official newsgroups you had access too, where everyone discussed tips and asked for help (much like the forums here), made the whole thing into a community.
As for getting Sony to re-release the Yaroze, recently the Official Playstation Magazine (UK) have started to put the games made by Yarozers back onto the coverdisk, which would add a lot of momentum to your campaign. Also the remaining Yarozers that I know (there are still quite a few), could use our inside resources (i.e the people within Sony who hold some power) to beg for the re-release.
Marc Lambert
marc@darkhex.com
PSX Net Yaroze developement and PS2 Linux
hey Guys, my post was not meant to start a Flame war, 
It is true that yaroze is the official way to do it, but they dont sell yarozes anymore, do they? also even using the yaroze, you cant sell your hobbiest home made game, because you need a developer licence fot that, which yaroze is not, you can only share games with other yaroze owners, the yaroze uses MIPS GCC wich is the same hackers use, other than that the only difference on ease of use is that the yaroze owners get to use the infamous "libps.exe", a hobbiest psx api, of course real developers dont use this lib, but they have access to the real developer documents that come with the developer licence and the SN compiler.
I am just saying that if you already have a PSX and an empty ISA, why spend $250 if you can spend $50, buy an action replay and comms link and give it a try?
if It was ilegal how come these sites have been up for years?
It is true that yaroze is the official way to do it, but they dont sell yarozes anymore, do they? also even using the yaroze, you cant sell your hobbiest home made game, because you need a developer licence fot that, which yaroze is not, you can only share games with other yaroze owners, the yaroze uses MIPS GCC wich is the same hackers use, other than that the only difference on ease of use is that the yaroze owners get to use the infamous "libps.exe", a hobbiest psx api, of course real developers dont use this lib, but they have access to the real developer documents that come with the developer licence and the SN compiler.
I am just saying that if you already have a PSX and an empty ISA, why spend $250 if you can spend $50, buy an action replay and comms link and give it a try?
if It was ilegal how come these sites have been up for years?
Hi,
I don''t see this as a flame war in any way :-)
"also even using the yaroze, you cant sell your hobbiest home made game, because you need a developer licence fot that"
No, the Yaroze is licensed so you can send your games to publishers for viewing and entire games can be made on the system (barring some minor touches). Of course, if you had a game get a publishing license, you would go for the full dev kit anyway.
"if It was ilegal how come these sites have been up for years?"
It''s illegal if you are using Sony''s libs. Besides, it''s well known that the internet is full of illegal sites, just because there is a site for something, that doesn''t make it legal.
I''m not against the hackers or anything, it all depends on what you are aiming to do with your programming knowledge. I''ve used some of the tools and many people use Action replays for Yaroze development. I''m just setting the record straight and I think that if people here are going to lobby for the re-release of a dev kit, then the Yaroze is the ideal one to go for, considering it''s success and current userbase.
Don''t mistake this as a flame :-)
Marc Lambert
marc@darkhex.com
I don''t see this as a flame war in any way :-)
"also even using the yaroze, you cant sell your hobbiest home made game, because you need a developer licence fot that"
No, the Yaroze is licensed so you can send your games to publishers for viewing and entire games can be made on the system (barring some minor touches). Of course, if you had a game get a publishing license, you would go for the full dev kit anyway.
"if It was ilegal how come these sites have been up for years?"
It''s illegal if you are using Sony''s libs. Besides, it''s well known that the internet is full of illegal sites, just because there is a site for something, that doesn''t make it legal.
I''m not against the hackers or anything, it all depends on what you are aiming to do with your programming knowledge. I''ve used some of the tools and many people use Action replays for Yaroze development. I''m just setting the record straight and I think that if people here are going to lobby for the re-release of a dev kit, then the Yaroze is the ideal one to go for, considering it''s success and current userbase.
Don''t mistake this as a flame :-)
Marc Lambert
marc@darkhex.com
BTW, you can still get the Yarozes from Sony, however they are only supplying them to Universities/Colleges, so if you attend one of these, it may be worth asking your tutor to look into it.
Marc Lambert
marc@darkhex.com
Marc Lambert
marc@darkhex.com
But they''re not using Sony''s libs, that''s the whole point... don''t go spreading rumors that it''s illegal to hack the PSX.
Now, the next thing, just because Sony puts it in a licensing agreement doesn''t make it legal nor illegal either . You''re supposed to sign a bunch of NDA''s and have them officially notarized etc... in order for them to be valid in a court of law. If Sony put “you must kill anyone you tell this information to” in the licensing agreement it clearly would not be legal. Now, Sony probably had lots of lawyers review their agreements to make sure they are legal, but licensing agreement consent is not upheld by default. i.e. “Using this software means you agree to such-and-such” has historically not held in court. That’s why there’s all those “Click Here to Accept” buttons – you need some sort of ritual in order for the courts to even consider an agreement legally binding.
You would probably be sued and lose if you bought the PSX development kit and then contribute to the hacker docs using the information from the official source – because this is expressly forbidden in the licensing agreement.
Now, Sony might like you to think that you can’t hack the PSX, make a game, and distribute it legally, but I bet you could. If you were really successful Sony would sue you to get some money outta'' ya. You would need to minimize your loses, in or out of court.
I forget the name of the company, but I think a company created Nintendo games without their permission and distributed them – they did the Gauntlet port, Pac-Man, and a few others if I am not mistaken. (They were the cool black cartridges.)
This is civil law, not criminal law; there’s no common sense to it; only greased pockets and precedence. If you can win the court case, it’s legal. And you don’t even have to clearly break and agreements or laws to be sued. Think Hasboro.
Magmai Kai Holmlor
- Not For Rent
Now, the next thing, just because Sony puts it in a licensing agreement doesn''t make it legal nor illegal either . You''re supposed to sign a bunch of NDA''s and have them officially notarized etc... in order for them to be valid in a court of law. If Sony put “you must kill anyone you tell this information to” in the licensing agreement it clearly would not be legal. Now, Sony probably had lots of lawyers review their agreements to make sure they are legal, but licensing agreement consent is not upheld by default. i.e. “Using this software means you agree to such-and-such” has historically not held in court. That’s why there’s all those “Click Here to Accept” buttons – you need some sort of ritual in order for the courts to even consider an agreement legally binding.
You would probably be sued and lose if you bought the PSX development kit and then contribute to the hacker docs using the information from the official source – because this is expressly forbidden in the licensing agreement.
Now, Sony might like you to think that you can’t hack the PSX, make a game, and distribute it legally, but I bet you could. If you were really successful Sony would sue you to get some money outta'' ya. You would need to minimize your loses, in or out of court.
I forget the name of the company, but I think a company created Nintendo games without their permission and distributed them – they did the Gauntlet port, Pac-Man, and a few others if I am not mistaken. (They were the cool black cartridges.)
This is civil law, not criminal law; there’s no common sense to it; only greased pockets and precedence. If you can win the court case, it’s legal. And you don’t even have to clearly break and agreements or laws to be sued. Think Hasboro.
Magmai Kai Holmlor
- Not For Rent
"But they''re not using Sony''s libs, that''s the whole point... don''t go spreading rumors that it''s illegal to hack the PSX."
I beg to differ, many do use the Sony libs. Those are the ones I''m refering to. I''ve visited many sites that even contain links to download these libs.
The question was why get a Yaroze, well it does depend on what you want the outcome to be.
If you want to do it hobby, then it''s cheaper to go with the AR/Comms method.
If you want to get experiance and get work in the industry, then it''s far better to get a Yaroze.
On the Legal side, I think you''d have many problems trying to explain yourself to Sony and the courts if you were using the Sony Libs, however it''s not illegal to use AR/Comms (and the various other methods), so yes those hackers aren''t in fact doing anything illegal.
Marc Lambert
marc@darkhex.com
I beg to differ, many do use the Sony libs. Those are the ones I''m refering to. I''ve visited many sites that even contain links to download these libs.
The question was why get a Yaroze, well it does depend on what you want the outcome to be.
If you want to do it hobby, then it''s cheaper to go with the AR/Comms method.
If you want to get experiance and get work in the industry, then it''s far better to get a Yaroze.
On the Legal side, I think you''d have many problems trying to explain yourself to Sony and the courts if you were using the Sony Libs, however it''s not illegal to use AR/Comms (and the various other methods), so yes those hackers aren''t in fact doing anything illegal.
Marc Lambert
marc@darkhex.com
mlambert, first of all not everyone uses libps.exe. The yaroze library is a little limiting in what it allows you to do, and many people just code straight to the hardware instead. Many sites on the internet provide it as an option for hacking the psx, but I would guarantee you that it is not a the most popular option. It mostly just appeals to those who really, really, really wanted to be a yaroze developer, but weren''t able to get their hands on an official yaroze system.
Now, the second point I''d like to make is that using libps.exe is just as legal as hacking the psx in the first place if you own a yaroze game . Why? ''Cause libps.exe is included on every yaroze-based game cd. (although it would not be legal to use the official Yaroze header files and library stubs, which is why free legally reverse-engineered header files and stubs have been made availible by hackers on the ''net)
-mark
Now, the second point I''d like to make is that using libps.exe is just as legal as hacking the psx in the first place if you own a yaroze game . Why? ''Cause libps.exe is included on every yaroze-based game cd. (although it would not be legal to use the official Yaroze header files and library stubs, which is why free legally reverse-engineered header files and stubs have been made availible by hackers on the ''net)
-mark
"mlambert, first of all not everyone uses libps.exe. The yaroze library is a little limiting in what it allows you to do, and many people just code straight to the hardware instead."
I will apologize for not making myself clear enough :-). What I am mainly talking about is those that use either the Yaroze libps.exe or the full libs. There are a lot more undergound people who do this, not just coding direct to the hardware.
However there''s no way to define how many use either method, so while it''s true to say that I shouldn''t have used the statement ''because it''s legal'' without elaborating, but also ''don''t go spreading rumors that it''s illegal to hack the PSX.'' works the same way.
The yaroze is limited yes, but only in not using the .avi files. Everything else (and yes even .avi support) can be done, some of us Yarozers do also write to the hardware too.
"Now, the second point I''d like to make is that using libps.exe is just as legal as hacking the psx in the first place if you own a yaroze game . Why? ''Cause libps.exe is included on every yaroze-based game cd. "
Yes, but you shouldn''t have a yaroze game on a cd if it''s not your own game and besides, all my yaroze games are on a cd and none of them provide access to the libps.exe file.
Overall though, it''s pointless debating this much further, because I''m neither for nor against hackers and I get the impresion no-one else here is and it''s been done sooooo many times before, so I promise to stop :-)
Back to the original post and question, forget the legal part for now, if you are serious about console development and want to enter the industry on next gen systems, then trying to get the Yaroze re-released to individuals (yes IT IS still available, through universities and colleges) is the best way to go.
There is still a community for it.
Sony still supports it.
There is a huge list of people who have gone into the industry as a DIRECT result of the Yaroze, I''m one of them.
There are three companies (that I know of) founded by the Yaroze work.
The libs and access are still more advanced than hacker versions, as good as they may be (and as intelligent as the people who made them ;-) ). *This may be debatable by some, but I''ve used various different versions and the yaroze libs are easily my choice* (2nd to the official libs of course)
Sorry for the long post and thanx for the debate :-)
Marc Lambert
marc@darkhex.com
I will apologize for not making myself clear enough :-). What I am mainly talking about is those that use either the Yaroze libps.exe or the full libs. There are a lot more undergound people who do this, not just coding direct to the hardware.
However there''s no way to define how many use either method, so while it''s true to say that I shouldn''t have used the statement ''because it''s legal'' without elaborating, but also ''don''t go spreading rumors that it''s illegal to hack the PSX.'' works the same way.
The yaroze is limited yes, but only in not using the .avi files. Everything else (and yes even .avi support) can be done, some of us Yarozers do also write to the hardware too.
"Now, the second point I''d like to make is that using libps.exe is just as legal as hacking the psx in the first place if you own a yaroze game . Why? ''Cause libps.exe is included on every yaroze-based game cd. "
Yes, but you shouldn''t have a yaroze game on a cd if it''s not your own game and besides, all my yaroze games are on a cd and none of them provide access to the libps.exe file.
Overall though, it''s pointless debating this much further, because I''m neither for nor against hackers and I get the impresion no-one else here is and it''s been done sooooo many times before, so I promise to stop :-)
Back to the original post and question, forget the legal part for now, if you are serious about console development and want to enter the industry on next gen systems, then trying to get the Yaroze re-released to individuals (yes IT IS still available, through universities and colleges) is the best way to go.
There is still a community for it.
Sony still supports it.
There is a huge list of people who have gone into the industry as a DIRECT result of the Yaroze, I''m one of them.
There are three companies (that I know of) founded by the Yaroze work.
The libs and access are still more advanced than hacker versions, as good as they may be (and as intelligent as the people who made them ;-) ). *This may be debatable by some, but I''ve used various different versions and the yaroze libs are easily my choice* (2nd to the official libs of course)
Sorry for the long post and thanx for the debate :-)
Marc Lambert
marc@darkhex.com
This topic is closed to new replies.
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