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how wrong would it be to do this....?


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#1 ncsu121978   Members   -  Reputation: 423

Posted 07 October 2010 - 05:51 AM

currently making an XNA game to be played on the XBOX360. There is a single player portion and can also be played multiplayer over XBOX Live.

How wrong would it be of me if in the multiplayer mode, if I have it detects my gamertag as logged in and playing it, to give me a bigger advantage in the game over my opponents? lol

Not really going to do that, but just curious what other people think about such things and has anyone actually done this or know of a game that does this?

Sponsor:

#2 Rycross   Members   -  Reputation: 576

Posted 07 October 2010 - 06:01 AM

I'd say that the wrongness is about 50 microHitlers, if I had to guess.

#3 swiftcoder   Senior Moderators   -  Reputation: 9735

Posted 07 October 2010 - 06:26 AM

Quote:
Original post by ncsu121978
Not really going to do that, but just curious what other people think about such things and has anyone actually done this or know of a game that does this?
Almost every massively multiplayer game has devmode/admin accounts (effectively accounts for which the cheat console is active) to allow the developers to test the game thoroughly.

I imagine this is less common in multiplayer games, if only because of the risk of someone hacking the credentials needed to become the admin character.

As for the ethical considerations of releasing a game yourself and then cheating at it - I think the fact that you have to even raise this question says enough.

Tristam MacDonald - Software Engineer @Amazon - [swiftcoding]


#4 ncsu121978   Members   -  Reputation: 423

Posted 07 October 2010 - 06:28 AM

[joker voice]
Why so serious?
[/joker voice]

and anyway to take the thread a slightly different direction.

Is it really necessary to implement anti-cheating precautions into an XBLIG multiplayer game? The player should not be able to access/modify the in game data as this is only on the xbox. I can understand the reasons if it were on a PC where it would be rather easy to modify the game files/executable and such to cheat. I just dont see that possible on the XBOX. Correct me if I am wrong about that.

I guess the user could intercept the packets going over the network and modifying them maybe....but I just dont see that really possible either. And I believe that XBOX encrypts data sent anyway.

#5 szecs   Members   -  Reputation: 2102

Posted 07 October 2010 - 06:36 AM

Quote:
Original post by Rycross
I'd say that the wrongness is about 50 microHitlers, if I had to guess.


lulzroflmao
is it your invention?

#6 Rycross   Members   -  Reputation: 576

Posted 07 October 2010 - 06:43 AM

Quote:
Original post by szecs
lulzroflmao
is it your invention?


I think I may have heard something like it somewhere else, but I can't remember when and where.

#7 rip-off   Moderators   -  Reputation: 7963

Posted 07 October 2010 - 06:58 AM

The Hitler is the SI unit of evil, every school kid knows this.

#8 Oberon_Command   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1812

Posted 07 October 2010 - 09:12 AM

How many Hitlers is a Stalin?

#9 M2tM   Members   -  Reputation: 948

Posted 07 October 2010 - 10:00 AM

It can be useful to add an Admin panel for your game which allows you to view detailed information about the current session. "God" mode or instant "/kill" commands are also useful. Using this in game against players who aren't helping you test, on the other hand, is not only immature, but also counter productive to promoting your game.

If you are cheating in your very own game I don't think that says anything positive really... I mean, why would you want to anyway? Competitive games are typically meant to be a challenge and removing that actually just makes it a repetitious and boring exercise.

#10 Yann L   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1794

Posted 07 October 2010 - 10:35 AM

Quote:
Original post by Oberon_Command
How many Hitlers is a Stalin?

The conversion is non-linear.


#11 Machaira   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1028

Posted 07 October 2010 - 10:37 AM

I can almost guarantee that won't pass peer review if you were to do it.

As for my opinion, I think it's a quick way to drive away your potential customers and would probably make you a leper in the industry.

#12 JamesPenny   Members   -  Reputation: 148

Posted 07 October 2010 - 11:01 AM

Quote:
Original post by Yann L
Quote:
Original post by Oberon_Command
How many Hitlers is a Stalin?

The conversion is non-linear.



This conversation is non-linear.

Zing!


Sorry.

#13 RivieraKid   Members   -  Reputation: 372

Posted 07 October 2010 - 11:53 AM

Quote:
Original post by ncsu121978
[joker voice]
Why so serious?
[/joker voice]

and anyway to take the thread a slightly different direction.

Is it really necessary to implement anti-cheating precautions into an XBLIG multiplayer game? The player should not be able to access/modify the in game data as this is only on the xbox. I can understand the reasons if it were on a PC where it would be rather easy to modify the game files/executable and such to cheat. I just dont see that possible on the XBOX. Correct me if I am wrong about that.



I have always thought that if I route my xbox connection through my pc I can sniff the packets and create a radar and give other info. Perhaps I can even modify the packets so the server thinks I have done something which I haven't.



#14 Don Carnage   Members   -  Reputation: 625

Posted 07 October 2010 - 10:41 PM

Quote:
"Tired of cheaters, griefers, aimbots and players that are just too good? Now comes the revolutionary new FPS/RPG gaming experience, where YOU can be the obnoxious lamer kid with no life at all. Earn enough experience in the game and access several classic online cheating methods, including invulnerability and the possibility of crashing the other players system at just the right moment. Fight your way to the top and gain the ultimate ability to modify the very source code of the game (built every wednesday!) ..."

Let us know how it goes.

#15 valderman   Members   -  Reputation: 512

Posted 08 October 2010 - 06:27 AM

Quote:
Original post by Rycross
I'd say that the wrongness is about 50 microHitlers, if I had to guess.
If you're using this definition, that's pretty evil.

#16 Ravuya   Moderators   -  Reputation: 127

Posted 08 October 2010 - 12:33 PM

Quote:
Original post by RivieraKid
I have always thought that if I route my xbox connection through my pc I can sniff the packets and create a radar and give other info. Perhaps I can even modify the packets so the server thinks I have done something which I haven't.

Lots of people used to cheat at online console games like this; I think Phantasy Star Online was one of the most obvious cases. The developers just didn't consider the concept of cheating since their console was "locked down."

I suspect Microsoft does some basic anti-cheat inspection as part of their TCR for a commercial product to get rid of the low hanging fruit. XBLIG? Probably not.

#17 slayemin   Members   -  Reputation: 2144

Posted 10 October 2010 - 12:41 PM

As far as the three major forms ethics are concerned..

Virtue Ethics:
Would a virtuous person add in cheat codes so that they could win at their own game? If so, what virtuous trait would they be exhibiting?

Kantian Ethics:
Consider the "Categorical Imperative". Could you will a world were all game developers put in cheat codes so that they always win?

Consequentialism: (utilitarianism)
What's the net effect on aggregate happiness? Does winning at a game increase the total happiness in the world (your happiness would have to outweigh the unhappiness of your opponents)

Personally I say "who cares?". If nobody knows you're cheating, they'll think you're super skilled at your own game.

#18 frob   Moderators   -  Reputation: 19628

Posted 10 October 2010 - 02:53 PM

Quote:
Original post by slayemin
Personally I say "who cares?". If nobody knows you're cheating, they'll think you're super skilled at your own game.
I care.

Morals aside, there is REAL harm done.



The cheater gets no real joy from the victory. They know they are frauds. You yourself will know the truth, and miss out on the joy, elation, self esteem, and satisfaction that is due to those who compete honestly.

Opponents get no real joy from a difficult battle. Opponents will not congratulate you, they will rightly react with contempt or anger. They may all quit the game early knowing there is a pathetic cheater in the game.

Observers get nothing from watching, especially when the cheat is obvious. Fans will not cheer you on, they will leave in disgust.

Community at large is harmed by cheaters. Every game that is joined by a cheater loses its thrill. Nobody wants to play with a cheater, and communities that are plagued with cheaters rapidly lose their quality. Many games have transformed from healthy competitive environments into stagnant cesspools because of a few cheaters.


Cheaters corrupt the entire industry. "I don't want to play FPS games, there are too many cheaters" you hear. Or perhaps saying like, "I don't visit public servers, everyone cheats". It becomes harder to attract new players, and difficult to retain those who are honest and pay the bills. I am one of many people who stopped paying for LIVE service because cheaters ruined the experience.



Cheaters rightly deserve disgust and a swift ban. It doesn't matter if they were the authors of the game or a script kiddie, they are a blight on the community at large.





Finally, if you work at a major studio and a hack like that is discovered in a shipped game, especially on a LIVE or PSN title, you will almost certainly be fired when it is eventually discovered.

#19 Rycross   Members   -  Reputation: 576

Posted 10 October 2010 - 03:29 PM

Quote:
Original post by Valderman
Quote:
Original post by Rycross
I'd say that the wrongness is about 50 microHitlers, if I had to guess.
If you're using this definition, that's pretty evil.


I'd never seen that thread, but they did bring up the original location I heard it. And the mystery is solved.

#20 slayemin   Members   -  Reputation: 2144

Posted 11 October 2010 - 01:32 AM

Quote:
Original post by frob
Quote:
Original post by slayemin
Personally I say "who cares?". If nobody knows you're cheating, they'll think you're super skilled at your own game.
I care.

Morals aside, there is REAL harm done.



The cheater gets no real joy from the victory. They know they are frauds. You yourself will know the truth, and miss out on the joy, elation, self esteem, and satisfaction that is due to those who compete honestly.

Opponents get no real joy from a difficult battle. Opponents will not congratulate you, they will rightly react with contempt or anger. They may all quit the game early knowing there is a pathetic cheater in the game.

Observers get nothing from watching, especially when the cheat is obvious. Fans will not cheer you on, they will leave in disgust.

Community at large is harmed by cheaters. Every game that is joined by a cheater loses its thrill. Nobody wants to play with a cheater, and communities that are plagued with cheaters rapidly lose their quality. Many games have transformed from healthy competitive environments into stagnant cesspools because of a few cheaters.


Cheaters corrupt the entire industry. "I don't want to play FPS games, there are too many cheaters" you hear. Or perhaps saying like, "I don't visit public servers, everyone cheats". It becomes harder to attract new players, and difficult to retain those who are honest and pay the bills. I am one of many people who stopped paying for LIVE service because cheaters ruined the experience.

Cheaters rightly deserve disgust and a swift ban. It doesn't matter if they were the authors of the game or a script kiddie, they are a blight on the community at large.

Finally, if you work at a major studio and a hack like that is discovered in a shipped game, especially on a LIVE or PSN title, you will almost certainly be fired when it is eventually discovered.


Eh, you're contempt for cheaters is noted and probably shared by a lot of people. Normally, people will spend a huge amount of time developing and refining a skill. We seem to get angry when someone doesn't have to go through the same growing process because there's a disparity between effort and reward.

My take is that "Life just isn't fair". People competing against other people in war, business, academia, love, games, whatever, and will do whatever they can to get an advantage over their opposition. Whether that's getting pointier sticks, stealing trade secrets, sabotage, taking credit for someone elses work, or adding a secret cheat code to your own game, it's just the way things are always going to be. It's probably legacy hard-wiring from our evolutionary past. In a sense, games of every sort are practice and training for challenges in reality. Learning how to get ahead can be a useful skill, though some of the methods may be Machiavellian.

If you created a game and were able to cheat in a subtle way where you gain an undetectable advantage, more power to you. If it still bothers you, just think of it as another rule to playing the game. "If player X logs in, they get bonus resources!"

Here's an interesting question: Would you consider discovering and using exploits to be cheating or a sign of mastering the game?




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