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If WW3 occurs within the next 6 months, thank WikiLeaks


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#1 Alpha_ProgDes   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 4680

Posted 28 November 2010 - 03:29 PM

WikiLeaks says that Saudi Arabia urged US to bomb Iran.
I mean in all honesty. What is the point of this? To cause confusion, mistrust, and eventually war? Is there a conspiracy to reduce the population and start civilization over? The Chinese must be having a field day with this stuff. It's amazing the type of espionage that went on in supposedly one of the most secure areas in the US military. I know they're trying to blame some private for all of this, but there's no way he had access to get this sort of information. This has to be an inside job and it has to go very close to the top of the food chain. I'm the Pentagon and the State Department aren't shitting bricks right now. I mean these documents must be from 9/11 or some time during the Bush administration. So all of this talk about securing our nation for almost 10 years, and now we know that we can't even secure documents.

I'm sad.

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#2 Sirisian   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1640

Posted 28 November 2010 - 03:39 PM

yawn. There's probably a lot of stuff in the leaked documents. Making a new thread for each one might begin to spam the forum. Also big surprise that Saudi Arabia doesn't like Iran's nuclear program.

lol read this paragraph which might be changed...
Quote:

As to its concerns regarding the Iranian nuclear program, Saudi Arabia is totally opposed to any move by the United States or Israel to use military force to shut down Iran's nuclear program.[21]


#3 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5790

Posted 28 November 2010 - 04:07 PM

Quote:
Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
WikiLeaks says that Saudi Arabia urged US to bomb Iran.
I mean in all honesty. What is the point of this? To cause confusion, mistrust, and eventually war? Is there a conspiracy to reduce the population and start civilization over? The Chinese must be having a field day with this stuff. It's amazing the type of espionage that went on in supposedly one of the most secure areas in the US military. I know they're trying to blame some private for all of this, but there's no way he had access to get this sort of information. This has to be an inside job and it has to go very close to the top of the food chain. I'm the Pentagon and the State Department aren't shitting bricks right now. I mean these documents must be from 9/11 or some time during the Bush administration. So all of this talk about securing our nation for almost 10 years, and now we know that we can't even secure documents.

I'm sad.


Why blame the messenger ?, Isn't the idiots who made those statements in the first place more to blame here ?

Its not wikileaks that urged the US to bomb Iran, Its not wikileaks that urged US diplomats to spy on other countries, its not wikileaks that made snide remarks about political leaders.

If a nation get caught playing dirty its their own damn fault, I think this also shows why its so dangerous to trust governments with our private lives, they've demonstrated over and over again that they are incapable of keeping their own secrets safe, trusting them to handle ours with any more care would be incredibly naive. (This is why i think that the best way forward is to have the people know everything about its government and the government know as little as possible about its citizens, a government is not a person and doesn't need privacy, if they can't stand for what they're doing they shouldn't be doing it in the first place)

#4 Kaze   Members   -  Reputation: 948

Posted 28 November 2010 - 04:33 PM

Quote:
Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
WikiLeaks says that Saudi Arabia urged US to bomb Iran.


Whats so shocking about Shi'ites and Sunnis still hating each other.

#5 ddn3   Members   -  Reputation: 1249

Posted 28 November 2010 - 04:55 PM

Iran knows Saudi Arabia, they know their allies and know who are against them, that's nothing new. I agree there really isn't a cause for releasing those documents other than embarrassing the US and it's allies. It doesn't reveal any new information about the Afghan or Iraq wars or would cause any change of public sentiment. Why release it? Some political statement?

Bradley Manning leaked those documents because of how he felt on the Iraq war and that was his reason but most of those documents don't even pertain to the Iraq war.. I doubt he had time to browse them before he leaked them, after all 250,000 correspondences is alot to digest, it took wikileaks months and full team to redact out the top secret stuff. Seems irresponsible to me, even if you didn't believe in the Iraq war, there are other avenues to express your dissent, than committing wholesale treason and causing lasting harm to your sworn nation to defend..

-ddn

#6 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 27790

Posted 28 November 2010 - 04:55 PM

Quote:
If WW3 occurs within the next 6 months, thank WikiLeaks
lolwut?
Quote:
I mean in all honesty. What is the point of this? To cause confusion, mistrust, and eventually war?
What are you asking for the point of?

The Saudis are talking about attacking Iran to achieve their own vision of stability/dominance in the region.
The Americans are talking about attacking Iran to achieve their own vision of stability/dominance in the region.
Wikileaks are talking about the talk of attacking Iran because the public has a right to know when their government is conspiring to start wars.

How does exposing warmongering start wars?? Doesn't it create opposition to war?

Also -- it's been revealed that the Saudis urged the US to bomb Iran, which they haven't done (yet).... how does this affect China?
How does knowing that the US doesn't follow every suggestion of it's allies create a "field day"?

#7 maximAL   Members   -  Reputation: 229

Posted 28 November 2010 - 05:03 PM

The german press is currently all over what diplomats have to say about german politicians.
Needless to say, it's what everybody thinks about them anyway.
But nevertheless it don't really see the point in making all this public.
People talking smack about other people, that's the way things are. And often it's good that not everything is made public - like the saudi - iran issue.

#8 LessBread   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1411

Posted 28 November 2010 - 05:26 PM

Quote:
Original post by SimonForsman
Quote:
Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
WikiLeaks says that Saudi Arabia urged US to bomb Iran.
I mean in all honesty. What is the point of this? To cause confusion, mistrust, and eventually war? Is there a conspiracy to reduce the population and start civilization over? The Chinese must be having a field day with this stuff. It's amazing the type of espionage that went on in supposedly one of the most secure areas in the US military. I know they're trying to blame some private for all of this, but there's no way he had access to get this sort of information. This has to be an inside job and it has to go very close to the top of the food chain. I'm the Pentagon and the State Department aren't shitting bricks right now. I mean these documents must be from 9/11 or some time during the Bush administration. So all of this talk about securing our nation for almost 10 years, and now we know that we can't even secure documents.

I'm sad.


Why blame the messenger ?, Isn't the idiots who made those statements in the first place more to blame here ?

Its not wikileaks that urged the US to bomb Iran, Its not wikileaks that urged US diplomats to spy on other countries, its not wikileaks that made snide remarks about political leaders.

If a nation get caught playing dirty its their own damn fault, I think this also shows why its so dangerous to trust governments with our private lives, they've demonstrated over and over again that they are incapable of keeping their own secrets safe, trusting them to handle ours with any more care would be incredibly naive. (This is why i think that the best way forward is to have the people know everything about its government and the government know as little as possible about its citizens, a government is not a person and doesn't need privacy, if they can't stand for what they're doing they shouldn't be doing it in the first place)


Yep.

It's amazing right now to watch the corporate media over here go into overdrive to knock down wikileaks. Given recent events in Korea, you'd think they'd have more important stories to report on, but instead it's been wikileaks around the clock. The lengths they go to at once decry and deny the leaks are astounding, from "there's nothing new here", to "oh no it's wwiii", barely pausing in between.


#9 ChurchSkiz   Members   -  Reputation: 434

Posted 28 November 2010 - 05:40 PM

You're right we shouldn't blame wikileaks. We should blame our retarded central INTELLIGENCE agency for allowing one person to be able to download 350k documents, unnoticed. Some network security...

I wonder how many other documents got out unnoticed over the last 30 years...

#10 Mithrandir   Members   -  Reputation: 607

Posted 28 November 2010 - 05:46 PM

Quote:
Original post by Kaze
Quote:
Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
WikiLeaks says that Saudi Arabia urged US to bomb Iran.


Whats so shocking about Shi'ites and Sunnis still hating each other.


This is more like Arabs vs Persians, to be honest.


But agreed on the "shocking" part. They've hated each other for over a millennium. I, for one, am not surprised at all.

#11 Mithrandir   Members   -  Reputation: 607

Posted 28 November 2010 - 05:50 PM

Anyway, me and Pouya were talking about this earlier today. We came to the conclusion that if there is a major war soon, it's not going to be because of WikiLeaks. The world has been building its tensions for a decade now, possibly longer, and every year it seems more and more people are itching for the trigger. If anything, WikiLeaks is just a convenient excuse for war; it was going to happen either way sooner or later.


Just like Archduke Ferdinand was a convenient scapegoat for WW1; the world was a powderkeg waiting to go off.


/scared
//kinda

#12 Prinz Eugn   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3522

Posted 28 November 2010 - 05:55 PM

I just think there are times when things should be kept secret.

The wikileaks assumption that having all information available to everybody is a good thing hasn't really been evaluated, has it? They strike me as idealists who are too caught up in themselves and release these things with the assumption that everything will be just fine via the magic of Openness!

It's like the idea that making everything open-source will somehow erase all the problems with software...

-Mark the Artist

Digital Art and Technical Design
Developer Journal


#13 Sirisian   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1640

Posted 28 November 2010 - 06:06 PM

Quote:
Original post by Prinz Eugn
I just think there are times when things should be kept secret.

If you ever watched Stargate SG-1 this topic comes up a lot. Albeit if the government had a Stargate program I might want to know.

#14 LancerSolurus   Members   -  Reputation: 488

Posted 28 November 2010 - 06:10 PM

The point of this is?

Every government on this planet is in it for the big 'WIN', they have all done the same thing the US gov has done. They use their power for their own good. It is human nature and the nature of the governing bodies.

So what if they have shown that the US gov is bad, so is the rest of them. They dont represent the populace any more than the Russian gov represents their people, the Chinese gov represent their people, the Pakastan gov represents their people, the Israel gov, the Indian gov, the British, the French, the German and on and on....

All gov's use their power to facilitate their own agenda, once in awhile they do get called out on it, at least (hopefully) they don't kill the messenger this time. Now we just need a wikileaks for all of them, the bad part is, nobody in power really cares other than to try to shut them up.

With all of the fear mongering going on over the past few years, Im surprised they haven't simply 'disappeared', as in being imprisoned without a trial and never heard from again. Its nice to see publicly they aren't all nice and want to protect our security as they keep blatantly pushing on us (which is BS, no country is ever 100% safe) while creating their own atrocities.

#15 SimonForsman   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 5790

Posted 28 November 2010 - 06:11 PM

Quote:
Original post by Prinz Eugn
I just think there are times when things should be kept secret.

The wikileaks assumption that having all information available to everybody is a good thing hasn't really been evaluated, has it? They strike me as idealists who are too caught up in themselves and release these things with the assumption that everything will be just fine via the magic of Openness!

It's like the idea that making everything open-source will somehow erase all the problems with software...


Ofcourse there are some things that should be kept secret, especially for a nation at war, Its the governments job to keep those secrets though, not wikileaks and embarassing diplomatic mail isn't one of those things.

Its obvious that government secrecy is out of control, Most of the material published on wikileaks is embarassing for the nation/organisation that kept it secret but in general the things published shouldn't have been kept secret in the first place and in some cases it should have been published by the government with names and other identifying information censored (In the cases where the identifying information relates to civilian informers etc).

Government isn't software, in a democracy the people needs to know what their government is doing in order to make informed decisions when its time to vote, in software there are massive advantages for some users to have sourcecode access but for most users its not essential because they aren't expected to influence the direction the software will be developed in in the future.

#16 maximAL   Members   -  Reputation: 229

Posted 28 November 2010 - 07:11 PM

Quote:
Original post by SimonForsmanMost of the material published on wikileaks is embarassing for the nation/organisation that kept it secret but in general the things published shouldn't have been kept secret in the first place and in some cases it should have been published by the government with names and other identifying information censored

What would be the point of publishing notes that US officials think the german foreign minister is an idiot? Its like publishing that you said your mom/teacher/boss/friend is an idiot.


#17 nilkn   Members   -  Reputation: 960

Posted 28 November 2010 - 09:01 PM

Most of the material that was published is nothing more than high school gossip. It's US diplomats stating their opinions about important figures from other countries. This doesn't need to be public. US diplomats are allowed to have their opinions about people they deal with, and it's absurd to expect all those opinions to be positive. In this case, the messenger gets all the blame.

Some of the rest of the material is different and the blame goes with the US for doing that stuff in the first place.

#18 JoeCooper   Members   -  Reputation: 338

Posted 29 November 2010 - 01:09 AM

Isn't it Saudi Arabia who's "doing that stuff" here?

I distinctly remember us not bombing Iran.

If anything, this makes it look like there actually are real security worries from up high instead of us just going after Iran because their oil bourse is in euros or something.

...Not that I'm afraid of Iran. Just saying, that one makes me feel slightly less bad about our government; heads of state are genuinely concerned and we're trying the softer approach.

#19 Fiddler   Members   -  Reputation: 738

Posted 29 November 2010 - 03:39 AM

Quote:
Original post by JoeCooper
Isn't it Saudi Arabia who's "doing that stuff" here?

I distinctly remember us not bombing Iran.


Yet.

And it is definitely the US government that has been building tension against Iran during the last 8 years.

Excuse the rest of the world for not feeling exactly sympathetic towards your government, its actions and its anti-Wikileaks propaganda. If WW3 starts, the US will, more likely than not, be the instigator.

#20 trzy   Members   -  Reputation: 100

Posted 29 November 2010 - 04:02 AM

Quote:
Original post by SimonForsman
Quote:
Original post by Prinz Eugn
I just think there are times when things should be kept secret.

The wikileaks assumption that having all information available to everybody is a good thing hasn't really been evaluated, has it? They strike me as idealists who are too caught up in themselves and release these things with the assumption that everything will be just fine via the magic of Openness!

It's like the idea that making everything open-source will somehow erase all the problems with software...


Ofcourse there are some things that should be kept secret, especially for a nation at war, Its the governments job to keep those secrets though, not wikileaks and embarassing diplomatic mail isn't one of those things.

Its obvious that government secrecy is out of control, Most of the material published on wikileaks is embarassing for the nation/organisation that kept it secret but in general the things published shouldn't have been kept secret in the first place and in some cases it should have been published by the government with names and other identifying information censored (In the cases where the identifying information relates to civilian informers etc).

Government isn't software, in a democracy the people needs to know what their government is doing in order to make informed decisions when its time to vote, in software there are massive advantages for some users to have sourcecode access but for most users its not essential because they aren't expected to influence the direction the software will be developed in in the future.


Diplomacy is a delicate art and it would be unwise to air internal deliberations and communication. The government is not an open source project and at a time when opaque regimes are doing their best to outmaneuver us on all fronts -- politically, economically, and militarily -- we should not be assisting them by making them privy to our operations.

This leaked material is very interesting, though. It'll be valuable for the historical record but I'd hate to be any of the folks responsible for obtaining and disseminating it. This is unfortunately very likely to have far-reaching consequences concerning Internet freedom. The WikiLeak team may not understand this.




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