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Proof God doesn't exist?


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#1 staticVoid2   Members   -  Reputation: 265

Posted 20 January 2011 - 05:50 PM

I've been thinking about this over the past few months and I believe its turning me into a bit of an atheist (which is kind of scary) but anyway, it all stems from
this phase:

"Cogito ergo sum"

which means....

"I think, therefore I am"

I keep wondering if there is a god and if he/she acknowledges that they exist then how do they know that they are in turn not being monitored by some higher power
(i.e. god's god). No matter what dimension or place god is existing within there will still be that acknowledgement of existence and therefore the uncertainty: are they really the apex entity?

This goes on forever (god's god's god etc.) until you realize that the current portrayal of god just does make any sense. Maybe because I'm human I just cant conceptualize an awareness of
one's own existence at that level (i.e. god), but, really, even if god is omnipotent, what if one day he finds out that everything he has ever known is false and that there is this higher power.

Is religion really just the answer to man's fear of death?, I mean we've been dead before and we kind of know how that went... just nothing.



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#2 Palidine   Members   -  Reputation: 1275

Posted 20 January 2011 - 06:02 PM

Different religions have different answers to this.

In the Greek mythology, many of the gods did in fact have parents: Athena was born out of the head of Zeus. Zeus in turn was created by Uranus who was birthed from Gaia who was born of Chaos and Chaos existed eternally before that: nothing created Chaos, it was timeless.

In the Christian religion the tree is a lot simpler. Jesus was the son of God. After he died they became part of the trinity: became again one god. But the god of the old testament is timeless (similar to Grecian Chaos). That is he existed forever. "Without beginning and without end" or something like that, I think, appears in the bible, or various hymns or both... I don't remember explicitly.

From a physics standpoint things are perhaps even simpler. Time simply did not exist before our universe came into existence. In so far as I understand current physical theory, time is actually a product of the Big Bang. So to talk about "time before the Big Bang" is actually meaningless.

But speaking purely philosophically, no you really haven't found "proof of God's non existence". That particular philosophical point has been successfully quashed probably a few hundred or even thousand years ago with the argument of the eternal nature of Gods. The idea that something must have a beginning is a strong human intuition but is not necessarily a fact in either a philosophical or scientific way. If you can conceive of something lasting from now until "forever" you should also be able to imagine something that has always existed. Both directions are equally infinite :)

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#3 RivieraKid   Members   -  Reputation: 374

Posted 20 January 2011 - 06:02 PM

could we be considered god of matter?



#4 Chris Reynolds   Members   -  Reputation: 110

Posted 20 January 2011 - 06:06 PM

1.) A man died on a cross which somehow saves the entire human race (only a TINY fraction of 1% of life that has been on the planet) from living in eternal damnation.
2.) Somehow we are still all born into sin and guilt and should spend our lives repenting and asking for forgiveness.
3.) If you don't do this, you will spend an eternity in a burning bad place - if you do this you will spend eternity in absolute happiness.

My question isn't which God is at the top... it's.. what could possibly make someone read a relic written thousands of years ago that says these things, and nod their head.. "yea... yea.. this makes sense, I'm going with this one."

It's my opinion that there are thinkings and there are believers. The more you think, the less religion will make sense to you.

If you think turning athiest is scary (don't know why you would) then I suggest you spend more time believing and less time thinking ;)


#5 D.Chhetri   Members   -  Reputation: 181

Posted 20 January 2011 - 06:07 PM

Yea I had the same thought couple of years ago. Then I thought possibly that aliens could have created us and watched us grow, just like we are creating complex robots and watching them grow. I wish the higher being would just come and set everything straight. So there will be no more confusion on religion, life and everything else. Its really hard to fight against cognitive thinking in favor of beliefs. Logically religion doesn't make sense, at least not now( and probably never will ). So my friend I suggest you to just forget this thought ever came to your mind and either, just believe, or live your life the way you feel is right. If not, this might become an obsession.
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#6 RivieraKid   Members   -  Reputation: 374

Posted 20 January 2011 - 06:10 PM

remember you dont have to be a christian to beleive in god.

#7 d000hg   Members   -  Reputation: 723

Posted 20 January 2011 - 06:11 PM

"Cogito ergo sum" isn't a law of nature though, is it? It's just one philosopher's idea.


It's my opinion that there are thinkings and there are believers. The more you think, the less religion will make sense to you.

That can be scientifically disproved because there are demonstrably people who are far better (if you don't mind the assumption) at thinking than you or I, and understand science better than you or I, who believe more strongly than we do.


#8 staticVoid2   Members   -  Reputation: 265

Posted 20 January 2011 - 06:12 PM

1.) A man died on a cross which somehow saves the entire human race (only a TINY fraction of 1% of life that has been on the planet) from living in eternal damnation.
2.) Somehow we are still all born into sin and guilt and should spend our lives repenting and asking for forgiveness.
3.) If you don't do this, you will spend an eternity in a burning bad place - if you do this you will spend eternity in absolute happiness.

My question isn't which God is at the top... it's.. what could possibly make someone read a relic written thousands of years ago that says these things, and nod their head.. "yea... yea.. this makes sense, I'm going with this one."

It's my opinion that there are thinkings and there are believers. The more you think, the less religion will make sense to you.

If you think turning athiest is scary (don't know why you would) then I suggest you spend more time believing and less time thinking ;)



theres another thing... eternal damnation. If we live for 70 years, commit a few sins here and there (punch someone etc.) then 70 / infinity = 0?
so really our sins meant 0 for the amount of punishment we were given? and yet other animals just simply pass away to non-existance?

#9 Hodgman   Moderators   -  Reputation: 28772

Posted 20 January 2011 - 06:17 PM

Capital-G-god is omnipotent and omnipresent, but not self-aware. It does not think, but it still is. Dilemma solved.

After all, even if you accept "I think therefore I am" as true, the reverse ("I am therefore I think") is obviously not true. You've not proven that God thinks, which has absolutely no impact on whether God exists or not (on the other hand, if you did prove that God does think, then that would have an impact on the question of God's existence).

#10 MajorTom   Members   -  Reputation: 715

Posted 20 January 2011 - 06:18 PM

I'm an atheist. ( It's not that scary, is it? I mean, have you played Amnesia? That's way scarier... )

Yet, I believe that "God" exists.
The concept of God lives in the mind of the believers of "God", much like Father Christmas.
There is no hard evidence of God, as we don't yet have the technology to prove the concept.

Interestingly, perhaps God exists in another sense; perhaps this world/universe is a prison or rehabilitation, or even a school.
Imagine the possibility of there only being one concious life, "God", yet the universe is populated by uncountable lifeforms.
Perhaps, in this situation, God is to live the full life of each lifeform in turn, which exists, will exist, and has existed, to better itself.
Perhaps this is a simulation, inwhich all of this happens in the blink of an eye.

Or perhaps, it's just us, and despite being incredibly lucky, we managed to somehow survive the onslaught of chaos in the universe.
Humans could be around for millions of years still, with technology beyond belief... yet everyone on this planet today will be dead in 150 years.

Life is short.

So, have fun, and make lots of fun games. :)

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#11 staticVoid2   Members   -  Reputation: 265

Posted 20 January 2011 - 06:25 PM

Capital-G-god is omnipotent and omnipresent, but not self-aware. It does not think, but it still is. Dilemma solved.

After all, even if you accept "I think therefore I am" as true, the reverse ("I am therefore I think") is obviously not true. You've not proven that God thinks, which has absolutely no impact on whether God exists or not (on the other hand, if you did prove that God does think, then that would have an impact on the question of God's existence).


Ok, that kind of makes sense actually.

#12 staticVoid2   Members   -  Reputation: 265

Posted 20 January 2011 - 06:37 PM

I'm an atheist. ( It's not that scary, is it? I mean, have you played Amnesia? That's way scarier... )


I'm not really an atheist, I've actually read the new testament every night for the past four years with no exception. I'm reading revelations at the moment which is quite brutal and probably why I'm posting this. which reminds me... I think ill order a King James bible from Amazon while I remember.

#13 SteveDeFacto   Banned   -  Reputation: 109

Posted 20 January 2011 - 06:57 PM

You are trying to rationalize something that is obviously fiction but this is just going to lead you back to where you started. Embrace the truth and forget the lies you were taught as a child because they will lead you no where. A large majority of the people on the internet are atheist because it is the most logical assumption when you have access to an infinite source of information like the internet. The only people who believe in god are those who have been taught it from a very young age and who do not have the information to realize the truth.

If I told you that I had an invisible pink hippo living in my apartment you would think me crazy because it is an outrageous claim. If I showed you strong evidence such as a bag full of invisible hippo poop you would have to accept it as truth. God is a magic man in the sky which is an extremely outrageous claim and should require strong evidence but there is none...

#14 owl   Banned   -  Reputation: 364

Posted 20 January 2011 - 07:01 PM

Asking if god exists is like asking if bittersweet food is palatable.
I like the Walrus best.

#15 Chris Reynolds   Members   -  Reputation: 110

Posted 20 January 2011 - 07:29 PM

There is nothing scary about not believing in God. Believe in humanity, good will, creativity, innovation, and love - these are more comforting to me than any God, because I have experienced them and I understand the immense meaning they bring to human life. My only beef with religion is that it seems to bring false meaning and conflict - both inner and outer.


#16 Oberon_Command   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1831

Posted 20 January 2011 - 07:33 PM

I am of the opinion that "I think, therefore I am" only proves that something exists, and not much else.

#17 Wan   Members   -  Reputation: 1366

Posted 20 January 2011 - 07:34 PM

This goes on forever (god's god's god etc.)

Ha! The mere existence of stack overflows is a proof that god exists.

#18 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 20 January 2011 - 08:08 PM

You are trying to rationalize something that is obviously fiction but this is just going to lead you back to where you started.

I often wonder how people are so ready to damn how close minded right wing christians are but pay no mind to stuff like this. I'm a christian, but I'd never go so far as to say the Buddha is fiction or that agnostics are wrong. It is just as harmful to think as close mindedly against religion as it is to think close mindedly for any religion.

If I told you that I had an invisible pink hippo living in my apartment you would think me crazy because it is an outrageous claim

if you got 4 billion people to also believe there was an invisible pink hippo living in your apartment and there were historical documents conveniently matching the timelines of other known and accepted historical accounts that said that this pink hippo existed I probably wouldn't think you were crazy. I wouldn't necessarily believe you, but I wouldn't think you were crazy.



#19 SteveDeFacto   Banned   -  Reputation: 109

Posted 20 January 2011 - 08:32 PM

I can't help but hate threads like this one. In my opinion it should be a standard rule that mods close these threads...

#20 owl   Banned   -  Reputation: 364

Posted 20 January 2011 - 08:34 PM

I can't help but hate threads like this one. In my opinion it should be a standard rule that mods close these threads...


and you're fat
I like the Walrus best.




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